Just in time for Dunkirk - Lee-Enfield SMLE MKIII*

[Dump1567]

**See Update on Post #22**


So browsing a local shop, I came across this Lee-Enfield SMLE MKIII*. I've owned a few No. 4's in the past, but rarely see these in this fine of condition. They wanted $402 out the door, which I thought was kind of high (it was a consignment, so there was no wiggle room). I came home and checked GB, and realized that was probably the going rate.

My wife and I had just seen Wonder Woman yesterday which takes place during WWI (good movie). There were plenty of these rifles featured in the movie. And with Dunkirk coming out in July, I figured there would be a renewed interest in this rifle for collectors. So back to the shop I went with C&R in hand before it was long gone.

This is an Australian Lithgow. I can't make out the date. It's either 1940 or 1943 (stock is marked 1944). I could find no import marks anywhere. Maybe hidden under the wood? It looks to be all matching serial numbers with a bright bore with strong grooves. There's also some marks or writing on the collar of the stock. Below is a couple of pics from both sides if anyone can make it out. (edited to add, I think it say "Australia", the country of origin. So a pre-68' import)

Any other info. on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[Absalom]

Nice find! I would definitely read the stamping on the metal as 1943. Looking at the other digits, I'd expect a 0 to be more elongated. In case you weren't aware, MA stands for Munitions Australia and is an acronym used by the Lithgow SAF.

 

[Dump1567]

Nice find! I would definitely read the stamping on the metal as 1943. Looking at the other digits, I'd expect a 0 to be more elongated. In case you weren't aware, MA stands for Munitions Australia and is an acronym used by the Lithgow SAF.

Thanks. I looked at a few pics of 1943's and mine looks the same.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Splendid rifle, I have an Ishapore but that is not the same for purists.

 

[Arik]

1918 SMLE with mint bore

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[SC_Mike]

I had heard that some of the soldiers that had them removed the butt plates and painted their names under and replaced it. Might be worth a look.

Either way nice rifle.

 

[2152hq]

I agree a (19)43 mfg.
The 'MA' stands for what ever the author of the book or article says it stands for. Munitions Australia (their Telegraph address early on),,or simply a play on 'Made in Australia'.
These are 2 versions I've seen in print from but I can't recall anything like a document or original Gov't order that plants the designation firmly in one or the other.
They both sound plausible as do some others I've seen. But no 'factory letter' as of yet that I know of to document any of them. Please advise if there is as I'd like to know myself as a long time L/E rifle fan.

The # up on the muzzle end of the forend (last pic) should be the ser# of the rifle if matching wood. 'E' prefix guns were 1942 to 44. and were assembled at the Orange feeder factory.
The B underneath the # suggests a BSA mfg forend though (if the B is in script font), Hard to tell. If the ser# matches the recv'r, it's the original wood
Stock may be marked MAO or OMA showing rifle assembly at Orange.

Stocks were supplied to Lithgow by Slazengers, a sporting goods wood working mfg turned War Time stock maker for the effort.
Stocks generally have SLAZ marked on the bottom edge of the forend and the butt stock grip but can be faint to start with and wear off from use.

Trigger guard looks like it's BA marked. Thats the Bathhurst feeder factory maker of small parts for the main arsenal at Lithgow.

Wellington & Forbes feeder factorys were other parts makers for Lithgow and their code stamped on the small parts were WA and FA. Most of their parts (sight parts mostly) went to Orange for assembly.

Inspector marks from Lithgow are generally a L/Broadarrow/#.
Orange are O/Broadarrow/#.
An inspection mark at Sydney will be a Crown/#/S
The # being the inspectorsID #

Nice rifle and the price was inline with the current market. They are not $100 surplus rifles any more and tough to find a nice condition one too.
Congrats and have fun with it.

 

[Dump1567]

I agree a (19)43 mfg.
The 'MA' stands for what ever the author of the book or article says it stands for. Munitions Australia (their Telegraph address early on),,or simply a play on 'Made in Australia'.
These are 2 versions I've seen in print from but I can't recall anything like a document or original Gov't order that plants the designation firmly in one or the other.
They both sound plausible as do some others I've seen. But no 'factory letter' as of yet that I know of to document any of them. Please advise if there is as I'd like to know myself as a long time L/E rifle fan.

The # up on the muzzle end of the forend (last pic) should be the ser# of the rifle if matching wood. 'E' prefix guns were 1942 to 44. and were assembled at the Orange feeder factory.
The B underneath the # suggests a BSA mfg forend though (if the B is in script font), Hard to tell. If the ser# matches the recv'r, it's the original wood
Stock may be marked MAO or OMA showing rifle assembly at Orange.

Stocks were supplied to Lithgow by Slazengers, a sporting goods wood working mfg turned War Time stock maker for the effort.
Stocks generally have SLAZ marked on the bottom edge of the forend and the butt stock grip but can be faint to start with and wear off from use.

Trigger guard looks like it's BA marked. Thats the Bathhurst feeder factory maker of small parts for the main arsenal at Lithgow.

Wellington & Forbes feeder factorys were other parts makers for Lithgow and their code stamped on the small parts were WA and FA. Most of their parts (sight parts mostly) went to Orange for assembly.

Inspector marks from Lithgow are generally a L/Broadarrow/#.
Orange are O/Broadarrow/#.
An inspection mark at Sydney will be a Crown/#/S
The # being the inspectorsID #

Nice rifle and the price was inline with the current market. They are not $100 surplus rifles any more and tough to find a nice condition one too.
Congrats and have fun with it.

Thanks for the info. I popped off the hand guard and my barrel is dated 1/44.

I also noticed my stock doesn't have the recoil plates. I've heard this is common on the 43/44's. It does have a piece of metal where the stock hits the receiver ring. There's also no indication it's a Jovino import.

I'm not real concerned with it, as I don't expect to put more than 40-100 rounds through it while I'm the owner.

 

[AJ]

Nice rifle and the price was inline with the current market. They are not $100 surplus rifles any more and tough to find a nice condition one too.
Congrats and have fun with it.

Prices have definitely changed over the years. I bought two in the mid 1970 for $30 apiece. I do have a Lithgow MK III*, but it is was changed over to a .22 trainer in 1949 got lucky and paid $100 for it.

Nice rifle. Hope you make a profit on it.

 

[LVSteve]

That's a fair price for a Lithgow that nice. I posted a couple of pictures of mine in the WWII fireams thread. Post Your WWI and WWII Firearms

 

[31FordA]

That's a nice #1MkIII*, and a good price these days. I used to have a Lithgow #1MkIII from 1918, it was a good rifle. The Lee Enfield is probably my favorite rifle, I have three at present. Two are #4Mk2, the other is a 1916 #1MkIII*, built at Enfield. My #1MkIII* was one of the rifles the British transferred to the Irish Free State army during the Irish Civil War from '22-'23. Even though Grandmom was Anti-Treaty it's special to have a rifle that was in Ireland when she was.

 

[Absalom]

I agree a (19)43 mfg.
The 'MA' stands for what ever the author of the book or article says it stands for. Munitions Australia (their Telegraph address early on),,or simply a play on 'Made in Australia'.
These are 2 versions I've seen in print from but I can't recall anything like a document or original Gov't order that plants the designation firmly in one or the other.
They both sound plausible as do some others I've seen. But no 'factory letter' as of yet that I know of to document any of them. Please advise if there is as I'd like to know myself as a long time L/E rifle fan.
.......

Frustratingly, on the official LSAF fact sheet the MA acronym is the only one that is not literally transcribed, only explained (see highlighted, attached). So the Lithgow folks themselves may not know (any more?).

But in view of the fact that all other acronyms used at Lithgow have a concrete location-specific meaning, I do not find Made in Australia or, alternatively sometimes quoted, Manufacture Australia, particularly plausible. The telegraphic M-address, which Lithgow had since 1912, would be something concrete at least; in the absence of actual evidence, I think I'll stick with that .

 

[Bat Guano]

Nice. Some years ago I happened onto a #1 Mk. III* with its share of dings but an excellent bore. It was marked SSA and 1917. After some time in Skennerton's book I found that the "SSA" on the tang stood for "Standard Small Arms" and was indicative of a "peddled scheme" rifle. Due to a severe demand for rifle production ,offbeat firms would turn out receivers and rifles would be assembled around them; sort of mixmasters, if you will. Apparently they are somewhat uncommon and not all documented.

It's a decent shooter. Sort of makes you wonder where it's been and what it saw. There was still a lot of dying to be done in 1917 and 1918.

 

[tndrfttom]

Nice. Some years ago I happened onto a #1 Mk. III* with its share of dings but an excellent bore. It was marked SSA and 1917. After some time in Skennerton's book I found that the "SSA" on the tang stood for "Standard Small Arms" and was indicative of a "peddled scheme" rifle. Due to a severe demand for rifle production ,offbeat firms would turn out receivers and rifles would be assembled around them; sort of mixmasters, if you will. Apparently they are somewhat uncommon and not all documented.

I've got a Standard Small Arms marked No. 1 Mk. III thats been around. It has Australian wood and some metal parts but managed to hang on to its magazine cut-off and windage-adjustable rear sight. It also has Siamese contract bolt.

 

[Absalom]

Here is the "official" answer that I just got back from Lithgow:

"Nobody knows for sure what MA means. The main contenders are "Munitions Australia" or "Mach Arms". We lean in favour of Mach Arms as the Lithgow Factory used it as its telex address for a long time. The Factory used MA on much of its rifle and bayonet production from late 20s/early 30s right up to the L1A1 era (1980s).

Kind regards,
Donna White
Custodian, Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum"

 

[2152hq]

Here is the "official" answer that I just got back from Lithgow:

"Nobody knows for sure what MA means. The main contenders are "Munitions Australia" or "Mach Arms". We lean in favour of Mach Arms as the Lithgow Factory used it as its telex address for a long time. The Factory used MA on much of its rifle and bayonet production from late 20s/early 30s right up to the L1A1 era (1980s).

Kind regards,
Donna White
Custodian, Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum"

Thank you taking the time to make the inquiry and post the response.
'Mach Arms' is one I had not heard of before and will add to the list of possibilities.

As the Lithgow Factory itself does not have as of now an answer, I will stick with that,,it's unknown at this time..
and that anyone claiming to know the real answer and putting it in published print needs to back up their claim(s) with facts.
Too many of these assumed facts become set in stone facts over time by mere repetition in print and now on the net.

 

[Dump1567]

Frustratingly, on the official LSAF fact sheet the MA acronym is the only one that is not literally transcribed, only explained (see highlighted, attached). So the Lithgow folks themselves may not know (any more?).

But in view of the fact that all other acronyms used at Lithgow have a concrete location-specific meaning, I do not find Made in Australia or, alternatively sometimes quoted, Manufacture Australia, particularly plausible. The telegraphic M-address, which Lithgow had since 1912, would be something concrete at least; in the absence of actual evidence, I think I'll stick with that .

The factory info. you uploaded shows a list of "Issue Marks". Where are these located on the rifle?
Thanks.

 

[Absalom]

The factory info. you uploaded shows a list of "Issue Marks". Where are these located on the rifle?
Thanks.

I don not know. I'm hoping a rifle collector can help with your question; I'm not one. I found the list and originally contacted the Lithgow museum for research into the Australian-issued S&W Pre-Victory and Victory revolvers that were FTR'd there. Sorry .

 

[Dump1567]

I don not know. I'm hoping a rifle collector can help with your question; I'm not one. I found the list and originally contacted the Lithgow museum for research into the Australian-issued S&W Pre-Victory and Victory revolvers that were FTR'd there. Sorry .

Thanks. I figured it out. They place the mark on top of the receiver above the serial number. My doesn't have one. Probably just had to get it off to war and it didn't matter where it ended-up.

 

[2152hq]

Most all of the Issue Marks will be found stamped into the right side of the butt stock. Butt stocks got changed out both in service and after being surplused out so originality or lack of markings can be difficult to determine sometimes.
Many have multiple issue markings with the older ones being 'barred out' to exempt them. Especially with the different Military District issues and the Civilian Military Forces markings.
Navy markings were generally on the left side of the 'socket'.
The Australian Property marking(s) can be found about anywhere on the rifle, just as the English Broadarrow can on their items.

(Australian Light Horse (ALH) marking is one that is quite often faked onto a rifle in hopes of upping the value.
Remfg'd hooked quillon '07 bayonets are common. There's modern repro's of the bayonet now for those who can't afford the real curio.
Like any other field of collecting,,if it's rare and pricey,,the fakers move in)