Kareen Hi Power, anyone have one?

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I already have a Hi Power clone, a FEG that has been parkerized by the seller. I wasn't really looking for another unless it reared up and bit me in the ***, but this deal basically did; there is a dealer selling Kareens (first generation, looks to be a true HP clone) for $239 + shipping. Condition is listed as milsurp, good, blued (original), faded.
The deal can be easily found on slickguns first page (it's how I found it).

My quick and limited research into the gun is that it is a FEG, assembled in Israel, with serials stamped on the frame, slide and barrel (or should be). As an owner of a FEG, I've determined that it should be 100% compatible with BHP parts, so the gun shouldn't be an orphan like, say, the later FEG DA/SA guns. I do know my FEG can take standard mags, springs and grips, and everything I've read say that the smaller internal parts match up too.

The stock photos look a little rough and worn, but as a steel frame and slide pistol, if it looks too bad, the gun should be a great candidate for a little polishing and a reblue (something you can't do as easily with aluminum or polymer frames). At this price, it was almost daring me NOT to order... ;).

Anybody have one, or experience with one?
 
I have a Mark 2 I bought last year LNIB if not new for $249. I did change out the hammer with a Browning and it was a drop in fit. Don't ask why.
 
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based on the photos, I'm getting a Mk 1 (or original HP). Round trigger guard, standard (small) beavertail, it appears to have the cam from what I can see. Other than the markings, it seems to be indistinguishable from a "real" BHP.
 
The Kareen arrived, I went and did the transfer, and got delayed... but I did get to handle and break the gun down to inspect it. This, to clarify, is from the Gunprime sale

Impressions- this is an excellent deal. Gunprime did themselves no favors with the stock photo, mine is in WAY better condition finish-wise. It is blued with wear along the edging of the sharp parts of the slide, and along the muzzle. No pitting or rust noted.

It IS the Browning action and barrel, and it is in great condition internally, everything is crisp and slick. The other day I went to a LGS and handled a new Browning HP, and as far as feel, this Kareen matches it 100%.
I already own a FEG, that has been parkerized. That is kind of gritty in comparison, I guess the park makes a difference. I can now see why these guns are so beloved, as this Kareen is as slick as can be, even with the mag safety in place.

I will pick it up Thursday, and can't wait to shoot it!
 
Must have been a batch of these imported recently as several dealers had them. For a very short time. By the time I opened the email from one seller, the Kareens were already sold out. I think anything under $300 for one of these is a good deal.
 
Israel originally bought FEG P9 pistols from FEG, but eventually started assembling them locally using FEG produced parts. These latter P9s are what were roll marked "Kareen".

FEG also sold P9s and P9Ms to some middle eastern countries that were under arms embargoes. They roll marked them as FN Hi Powers. They are easy to spot as they have "B" serial number prefix and a 5 digit serial number. Israel apparently captured a number of these as you'll see FEG marked P9s, Kareen marked P9s and FN marked P9s in the current surplus pistols being imported from Israel.

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The FEG Hi Powers come in four or five basic flavors:

FEG P9

These are a very faithful copy of the pre-Mk II FN Hi Power, and has 100% parts compatibility with the FN Hi Power.

They are made in both military parkerized and blued commercial finishes.

The commercial P9s can be found with both spur and round hammers, and many of them will be found with larger 2 dot sights. Some of these commercial pistols are also found with extended safety levers. It's likely that FEG configured them to the importer's request, and in some cases it's possible they assembled them from whatever hammers and sights were on hand at the time. These pistols can be found with wood or plastic grips.

The finish of these commercial FEGs was excellent in terms of polish and blue, and now and then you'll still find one in excellent condition. This one came with the larger 3 dot sights, but had the small safety lever, which I swapped out for an extended FEG lever from a first generation P9M:

FEG%20P9-2_zps8clak6ys.jpg

FEG%20P9-1_zpsbeenpkcd.jpg


This P9 still has the original small safety lever (but aftermarket Hogue grips:

IMG_0841_zpsrcukw8sa.jpg


First Generation P9M

The first generation P9M was virtually identical to the P9. The differences are:
- the larger 3 dot sights were standard;
- the slide release lever was changed from the distinctive half moon shape to a 1911 style slide release lever; and
- the extended safety lever was (more or less) standard.

The slide has a smaller notch in it to correspond with the smaller tab on the 1911 style slide release lever. Otherwise, with that exception, the parts are all interchangeable with a Pre-Mk II FN Hi Power.

These can also be found with wood or plastic grips.

FEG FP 9

This was a first generation P9M with a ventilated sight rib. These have an "F" prefix serial number.

Charles Daly Hi Power

Charles Daly was KBI's upscale banner and they imported a very well made version of the Hi Power with a Mk II style muzzle ring to protect the crown. KBI imported the parts in partially finished form and did enough finish and machine work in the US to call it a US made firearm (much as Israel did with the Kareen).

The first 800 were completed by Dan Wesson with "HP" prefix serial numbers. Unfortunately, they were priced only about $50 less than FN was selling their Hi Power at the time, so they didn't sell well. Dan Wesson went out of business and KBI was with over 3,000 parts kits and no one to manufacture them.

After about a year and a half, KBI/Charles Daly contracted with Magnum Research to build the Charles Daly Hi Powers which finished the remaining 3000 parts kits over the next year. These Hi powers have "HPM" prefix serial numbers. They didn't sell any better due to the similarly priced FN Hi Power and after a few years KBI closed the remaining pistols out at $349 - about $150 under the price of an FN Hi Power at that time.

The Dan Wesson built Charles Daly Hi Powers had a 1911 Novak slide cut and traditional 1911 style sights while the Magnum Research built Hi Powers had the slides milled for Novak style sights with XS Xtreme sights installed.

The Charles Daly Hi Powers came with Craig Speigle designed Uncle Mikes rubber grips - which are regarded by many as being the nest rubber grips available for the Hi Power.

Second Generation P9M

The second generation P9M has a modified Hi Power frame but uses a Smith and Wesson style locking system. They have much less parts commonality with the FN Hi Power. They can be identified by the lack of the oval on the right side of the frame, that is found on Hi Powers.

Importer model number confusion

KBI imported P9s, 1st Gen P9Ms, and 2nd Gen P9Ms. FEG roll mark the P9s and P9Ms as the "PJK-9HP", however you'll also find all three models with "PJK-9HP" engraved in the slide as well, making that model number totally useless in telling them apart.

The "PJK" stood for Pamela Jane Kassnar, the wife of the importer Michael Kassnar. He had a habit of using initials of family and key staff in the model numbers of KBI imported pistols. The "9HP" refereed to the 9mm Luger caliber and the Hi-Power design.

As an aside in addition to the "PJK" origins:

The MBK-9HP and MBK-9HPC was named for Michael Kassnar
The PMK-380 was named for his father, Paul Martin Kassnar
The GKK-45, GKK-92 and GKK-92C were all named for his daughter.
The SMC-380, SMC-918 and SMC-22 were named for KBI's sales manager at the time.


TGI also added to the confusion as they imported all 3 models as well and called them all the "P9M".

FEG P9R - a S&W Model 59 clone

The P9R is a double action pistol that is a close copy of the S&W Model 59 and is not at all related to the FN Hi Power. However there's still some confusion based on the FEG "P9" portion of the model number.

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The military surplus pistols have been around awhile, many have been used hard, and the parked finish doesn't require much polish. This has I think contributed to the FEG Hi Power getting a reputation that doesn't really do justice to the commercial pistols.

In my experience the FEG commercial pistols I've owned and shot (3 and counting) have been slightly less accurate than my Fn Hi Powers, but all three will still easily hold an 8" plate at 25 yards and shoot to point of aim. The trigger pulls range from comparable to maybe a pound heaver, and like the FN are a bit gritty unless you remove the magazine safety.

In terms of reliability, they are every bit as reliable as my FN Hi Powers, including hollow point bullets. The FEGs use the humped feed ramp found on the pre-Mk II Hi Powers, which are not germinally regarded as being reliable with hollow points, but I have not observed any feeding issues with 124 gr XTP, or 124 gr and 147 gr Golden Sabers. Worst case you can have a gunsmith modify the fed ramp to the later straight style, or install a Hi Power barrel.

Given that an FEG P9 or 1st gen P9M will sell for $350-$400 in very good to excellent condition, they are an excellent value compared to the going rate for an FN Hi Power in similar condition (in the $800-900 range).
 
Excellent post, BB57, many thanks!

I have a first-gen (I believe) FEG P9M, small safety and slide release, from Coles (CDISales). It has the flared base of the magwell and the hognose, wooden grips, and was parkerized by the importer as I understand it. There appears to be some pitting at the left front of the slide, which has been resolved by the refinish and park (it's my understanding that parkerizing will stop any further pitting due to the nature of the process). Ring hammer, B2xxx serial (matching), trigger was very crunchy until I removed the mag safety.
Other than the serial on the right slide, front strap, and barrel, the only other marking is on the left of the slide

PARABELLUM Cal.9mm
MADE IN HUNGARY FÉG-BUDAPEST

Interestingly enough, my FEG is close in serial to the gun pictured in this site link, my grips are very similar in appearance and wear, and the evidence of front left slide damage is very similar also (although, as I said, the parkerizing has covered a lot). But my frame is flared, and the one pictured on the site is straight. Also, I don't have import markings on mine.

That trigger is much smoother now, but still a little heavier than the Kareen's, I think... but I don't have both at hand at this moment. I think the Kareen's was a crisper click. I honestly wonder whether the parkerizing of the smaller parts affected it.

That finish came to me light gray and dry, and a little dusty feeling, but I've soaked the gun liberally several times with Ballistol and vaseline while in a ziploc bag, sitting on a stove over the pilot lights, and the finish has progressed to a velvety smooth black. I initially thought the gun inaccurate, but I now think my grip and the sights are to blame; I CAN shoot it well, but it takes a lot more focus and effort to do so, than (for example) my CZ 75. I seem to have the smaller sights, not the 3 dot.

With my grip, it seems I miss hammer bite by about 1-1.5 mm.

This is my FEG
32024387154_e78519c098_c.jpg


The incoming Kareen, upon inspection this morning, seems to have the same frame style with magwell flare, a spur hammer, and plastic/rubber Kareen grips. The gun seems to have lived a better life, as the original blue remains and is probably around 85-90%. Blue steel vs park, the texture of the gun just feels very smooth indeed.

The trigger is very smooth and crisp, despite still having the mag safety. Just to the best of my recall, it felt identical to the new Browning I handled in the store earlier this week. Of course, I held the hammer with my thumb when I pulled the trigger on both, but it did feel clean.
 
My wife has been shooting a Kareen for a couple of years now in two women's shooting groups. We have original Brownings but she prefers this example. If memory serves me correctly I got this one at J&G Prescott, AZ and they sold out rapidly.
Jim
 
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