Krag gurus?

[Stevie]

I toted home a relic of the American Military and sporting past today...a beat-up and sporterized(Bubbized) M1898 Krag .30-40 hunting rifle(used to be a fighting rifle).

I know just about squat where it concerns Krags...I've seen them...but never really handeled one before.

I have a book with destructions for taking it apart..and have scattered it all except the magazine mechanism..reassembeled no sweat..Pretty cool mechanism!!..Not real sure who thunk up that magazine feeding system..but it is neat and sweet!..Bolt design is cool too.

I do have some questions however..I suspect my magazine cut-off mechanism may be disabled...but I ain't got any cartridges..so I'm not for sure. The magazine switch works as far as far as detents up and down..but it don't have any 'ON'..'OFF' like my 1903 has. Info online says they switched directions for the mag-switch for the various models..but doesn't relay which direction is on or off..up or down.

So what direction does the mag cut-off switch shut off the magazine?

Thanx..Stevie

 

[Cocked & Locked]

Stevie...the .30-40 Krags were made from 1892-1898 with lots of little differences in those years.

If my memory doesn't have it in reversed, with the 1896 and earlier guns the switch in the up position allows one to feed from the magazine. Down cuts it off.

1898 and later Krags were reversed...switch down and it feeds from the magazine. Up and the magazine is cut off.

I may have those reversed.

Or you can toss that switch as was done on a lot of sporterized ones...as on mine so as to mount the vintage Redfield receiver sight.

 

[Stevie]

I just figured it out myself..the cut-off works nothing Like a 1903 or 03A3.

When it's in the up position..it looks like it will feed..in the down position it would appear that it cams the cartridge down a bit so it won't feed.

The earlier Krags must have been reversed. I just wasn't seeing the internal end of the cut-off...I thought it was supposed to limit bolt travel like a 1903 rifle.

Pretty cool Krag sporter!

Mine's a little more basic...it's a plain Model 1898 with the barrel cut back to 24"..and the original front sight brazed onto a sleeve and added back onto the barrel..wood reduced to suit. Poor-boy deer rifle style.

 

[NE450No2]

I have never owned a Krag, but I have shot one a few times.
A buddy had a carbine and he would bring it to work sometimes, when we were at the range. After the first time I shot it I always kept a box or two of factory ammo in the trunk of my work car.

He would let me shoot it as much as I wanted, because I let him keep the once fired brass.

The Krag is one of the slickest bolt rifles on the Planet.
The magazine system is perfect for a hunting rifle.
You just "pop" the mag door open, drop the correct number of rounds in and "slap" in closed. The rifle can be reloaded with the bolt closed and a live round in the chamber.
What a system...

I was good friends with a Norweigen gunsmith, that was an expert with the Krag. I tried to get him to rebarrel a 6.5x55 to 308 for me.

I promised to only load and shoot 308's loaded to 6.5x55 pressures. And low 6.5x55 pressures at that. I just hated to have to start loading another calibre. I told him even if I only got 30/30 ballistics from it that would be fine, as I wanted it for fun shooting and deer and pig hunting up close...

Still he refused, as he said full power ammo, [even if fired in the rifle on accident] would be dangerous.

He was no doubt right...

That is one fine looking Krag.
They are a real cool rifle.
And real piece of History

 

[Cyrano]

Many of them were sporterized when they were available from the DCM for $3.50 during the depression, making the military ones somewhat scarce. It must have looked like a gift from heaven; a very well made repeating rifle, with a 5 round capability, more powerful than the Winchester 30-30, which was about $15 then if I got it right. They were too long for woods use so the barrels got cut off and the wood cut back. Purists decry this; I disagree: at that time they were putting meat on the table, and a lot of people would have gone to bed hungry without them. I have a military one; I've been meaning to get a sporterized one, too, in memory of the people whom they fed during hard times.

If you reload, keep you pressures 'way down. Some years ago The Handloader magazine published some pressure-tested reloading data for the 30-40; it's worth looking up.

The ammo was also available for $3.50 per 100 rounds. There were many schemes for cutting off the tip of the 220 gr round nosed bullet to get it to expand, but none were too successful. There was a very narrow line between not having it expand at all, and shooting the core out of the bullet leaving the jacket in the bore to jug the bore at the next shot. Perhaps the line was nonexistent, I don't know.

 

[Stevie]

Are the receivers case-hardened on the Krags?

It's hard for me to tell if it's just patina or what...The barrel has blue..the bolt appears to be in the white..and the mag-covers look to be blued. The receiver however is impossible to tell just what finish it may have originaly had.

The ammunition...."keep it mild" I hear..and have always heard how weak the action is. Definately ain't a Mauser 98 action. I would assume the factory loaded .30-40 Krag ammo is safe in a good condition Krag, yes?....

I ask because I notice the Remington factory 180gr loads substantially exceed original/period published velocitys. The same is true of the .30-30 too I guess. Modern powders give more push for less pressure I guess(lighter bullets too).

 

[Alpo]

Cocked and Locked, thank you so much for posting.

I've heard, time after time, that the Krag had a magazine cut-off. Could never find it on mine. Wondered if I was really dumb.

Mine has a Pacific rear sight mounted just like yours is. So apparently a previous owner removed the cut-off to mount the sight.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

So apparently a previous owner removed the cut-off to mount the sight.

Bet you are correct. On the Redfield sight, as part of the mounting attachment, there is a piece on the mount that fits into the hole once occupied by the magazine cut-off.

I'm in the process of putting a side mount scope on mine using one of the S&K mounts that requires NO drilling/tapping on the Krag. That magazine cut off empty hole is also used as a mounting point for the scope base.

 

[bgrafsr]

Are the receivers case-hardened on the Krags?

It's hard for me to tell if it's just patina or what...The barrel has blue..the bolt appears to be in the white..and the mag-covers look to be blued. The receiver however is impossible to tell just what finish it may have originaly had.

i believe the receivers and the magazine covers were color case- hardened. They are definitely one neat rifle with a butter smooth action. Wish I still had mine.

 

[Alpo]

Bet you are correct. On the Redfield sight, as part of the mounting attachment, there is a piece on the mount that fits into the hole once occupied by the magazine cut-off.

I'm in the process of putting a side mount scope on mine using one of the S&K mounts that requires NO drilling/tapping on the Krag. That magazine cut off empty hole is also used as a mounting point for the scope base.

Amazing how much better a picture you can take, on macro, when you use the tripod instead of trying to hand-hold the camera.

 

[2152hq]

The receivers are case hardened.
They were done by the same workers & with the same material and process as the Low# 03 Springfields that replaced the Krag one day on the production line at Springfield Arsenal..

Keep the loads within reason and you'll not have a problem.

** Inspect the bolt carefully for a crack behind the locking lug.**
They are more likely to fail there than any other point.

The single locking lug on the bolt is the only true locking surface on the US Krag Rifle.
The rear safety lug is supposed to clear the receiver surface by a couple of .000" in normal fit-up and operation. It's only duty is it's name-sake should the front bolt lug fail.

In the sporterizing craze era, there was more than a few US Krag rifles that had the front bolt lug 'lapped in' so that the rear lug came into engagement with the receiver surface.
The thinking was that the rifle would be stronger then as it had 2 solid bolt lock up points.
One problem was that in lapping the front lug in, it generally required that the surface hardening of the receiver (and sometimes the bolt) be lapped away. That left a soft wear surface and headspace problems could quickly rise.

The bolts themselves are case hardened also. The receivers are oil quench IIRC giving them a blue/brown color when new. Not the bright bone charcoal & water quench colors like a Winchester LeverAction.
The oil quench avoids excess hardness.

Dispite being made of the same steel and heat treated by the same methods and workers at the same factory, the Krag never suffered the 'Low# Springfield' problems it seems.

I personally think that problem is one of design, breech pressure of the cartridge and ammo quality. But I'm sure the debate will never go away and my opinion certainly won't change it.
I continue to shoot both my '98Krag and my Low# 03 Springfield Sedgley Sporter.

 

[Stevie]

Yes...I've read for years about the bolts cracking on these old guns.

I've looked it all over for any sort of crackage or wear..both bolt and receiver. This stuff all looks perfect. No extra holes in the receiver for scopes or peepsights...the basic mechanics look fine. My speculation would be the rifle really didn't see that much use as a rifle...maybe some use as a pry-bar..or maybe a long career rolling around unprotected in a vehicle!

Problems it does have mainly concern the rear sight. It's the original style sight. One of the mount screws was broke off..but I got that out..and have a good hole..just need a screw. The real issue is the windage adjustment...it's stuck..and the elevation slider..somebody twisted off the knurled thumbscrew.

Only other issues would be some crackage in the wood behind the action. The stock is sturdy..but the cracks are there..I'm going to have to degrease and glue..plus the wood looks like somebody used the stock to pry open wood crates. Needs a little help.

I think somebody robbed a couple pieces off this old rifle..and substituted less than perfect pieces! The suspected pieces being the left-side magazine cover and the rear sight, and handguard too.

I think the mag cover has been replaced by one with the back cut-down the clear a receiver sight(the receiver has never had a peep or holes for a peep). I ordered a replacement already..so no deal there..I can live without the crappy handguard..guns's in sporter configuration anyhow...I'l have to get my rear sight servicable, shouldn't be too hard to get the windage working and find some screws.

It's a definate project gun..

 

[straightshooter1]

I collected Krags and Springfields for many years, and finally sold off all but one of each about the time I retired.

I have only seen one bolt that was cracked, though I, too, have heard about the danger of cracked bolts for years.

If you can't get the rear sight working, you could always have the barrel drilled and tapped (if the only problem is the screw holes) or watch for a "No-drill" rear receiver sight that fits where the mag cutoff was. I see them quite often on Ebay, most of the time for fairly decent prices.

Original sights are still fairly plentiful, but, IMO, too expensive and not as useful as the "No-drills."

I have used them (No-drills) on most of the Krags I had, and still have one on the last one that I kept.

Krags shoot well with cast bullets, but I had one with a bore that had not been cleaned well and it still shot FMJs and match bullets very well.

The three milsurp rifles that shoot the best for me are the Argy Model 1891, the Springfield '03 and the Krag.

I expect, when you get this one running, you will be well pleased with the accuracy.

Bob

 

[Stevie]

I hope it shoots well...I just ordered two boxes of PCI .30-40, and a set of Lee dies.

A surprising number of companys still load the .30-40! I couldn't find ammo localy..but it appears that Remington and Winchester both offer ammo...PCI(Precision Cartridge), and HSM(Hunting Shack Munitions)...maybe more. Just no one has it in stock except online.

A friend asked me how the .30-40 compared to more popular rounds..and I really had no answer..it ain't a .30-06 or a .308...more than a .30-30..I guess the more direct comparison might be the old .300 Savage Huh?

 

[revho]

Here is I believe an 1896 for reference (without going to look in the safe). Picked it up a couple years ago from my uncle on the cheap. Have not shot it, but appears to be in good shape. (sporterized as well)

 

[Stevie]

COOL!!

You could put a buttstock..and front band on that one and un-bubbize it...looks to have the full length barrel..original sights and such.

Mine is strictly an early/mid 20th century classic sporter configuration now...Which I must say is really a quite handsome configuration...wish it wasn't so battered as far as the wood goes. The metal will clean up decent enough..and rust is minimal...however the wood will require some work...and probably some filler in a few places.

Got my windage working..and fabricated a rear sight base screw...Looks like Graf and Sons shipped my ammo and reloading dies..so about next Monday maybe I can see if the old musket will shoot.

'Nuther question for the Krag guru's..I notice the back of the rear sight blade has a fine silver colored wire inlaid highlighting the centerline..izzat real sliver..platinum..nickel or what?

I just noticed the silver wire this evening while monkeying with the windage adjustment screw.

 

[semperfi71]

Great thread and I love the beautifull sporter!

I always wanted a Krag from the time I read about the "Rough Riders" as a kid. I did get to carry one once on a one day deer hunt. It was a cheaply done sporterized version but it was indeed an interesting rifle action.

For many years the world record bull elk was one killed in Colorado about 1901?? with a .30-40 Krag bullet out of a Winchester M95.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

There is a Krag Forum over at gunboards.com total online service for the gun owner and collector. Also there is a Krag Collectors Association.

 

[2152hq]

I've bought some small parts from S&S Firearms in the past including Krag parts.
They had the rear sight base screws (new mfg). IIRC there are 2 different heights for the screw head & a couple for screw thread length,,depending on the model. The thread size is an odd one IIRC.

All the Krags have the same rear sight hole spacing,,just different rear sight assemblys for the different models.
I think the '98 uses one short and one tall headed screw. I had to replace the sight on one a couple of years back.

If your replacement doesn't work out, try them for parts.
S & S Firearms Home
I'd call them though to check inventory. Seems like I got a couple of 'out of stock' notices even though the part was supposed to be available.

FWIW, If you need trigger guard screws, either front or back,,,they are the same as the '03 Springfield and may be easier to find & cheaper listed as so.

There's arsenal/armorer mods done to the '98 sight.
The original had the 3 sighting notches IIRC. The center notch highlighted by the silver line you see.
The only thing I can ever recall it being said to be was 'white metal'. Obviously Gov't terminology!. I suspect it's probably tin but that's just a guess.

The sight was modified to remove the 2 outboard sighting notches on the back leaf. Soldiers disliked them and the mod was simply to grind the edges down & round it off on each end to eliminate the notches.

The Krag sights are a study in themselves. The 1902 style stayed w/a single sight notch but retained the rounded corners of the leaf that were produced in modifying the 1898 sights.
I think a small swing up peep aperture was added to the leaf too.

I just looked at a Krag w/a cracked bolt lug at the OGCA show this last weekend. The seller was unconcerned about the condition when pointed out.
I've seen probably a half dozen over the years. I've never seen or heard of a Krag receiver cracking or shattering like the low# '03 conditions reported.
Keep the loads under 40K and they seem to do fine. The original 220gr bullet had a MV of 2000fps. Most all commercial stuff today is 180 or 150gr. perhaps.
I don't know what their MV is but I'd guess it outdistances the 30wcf by a bit if that's the goal. Paper targets & tin cans don't know the difference.

 

[Stevie]

I bought a couple boxes of PCI 180gr ammo from Graf And Sons...and a set of reloading dies too.

Tinkered around with the Krag a bit..laborously machined a rear sight screw..and gave the rifle a test fire.

I can say that I like the PCI ammo..I can also say this Krags sights need help!

As sighted..the rifle shoots way..way low..and somewhat to the right. Cranking the windage off to the left a substantial amount..and setting the range for 450 yards got the rifle pretty close at 50 yards. However after every shot..the rear sight slider slid back to the 200yd battle zero. So I whittled a stick and wedged it under the sight leaf to hold it roughly to elevation. Could hit the target then without having to reset the elevation.

After firing a few shots..I took a good hard look at the front sight. The sight appears to be the original..brazed onto a thin pipe/tube..and possibly soldered onto the barrel(or wedged really tight). Does appear to be just slightly 'off' to the left..making my shots go right(requiring me to crank the windage adjustment a bunch to compensate). The front blade is likely plenty tall enough to shorten up and get the gun sighted without setting the rear for 450yds.

I guess I need to decide whether I want to work out these sight's issues..or replace both sights..or work out the rear sights issues and replace the front sight with a band style ramp($70-$90) or whatever. Needs help one way or the other.

I did think the action functioned just 'awesome'..no other way to describe it. I've shot lots of bolt action rifles..milsurp and commercial..none compare to the smooth and easy Krag.

The accuracy too..I think shows promise(despite the sights!).

It's a perfect project rifle..I like tinkering. I'm going to fix-up the stock..and keep it..probably fix the cool windage adjustable rear sight..maybe replace the front sight..have to think on that..I may fix it too being it is cobbeled up from the original.