LEOSA and the State of Hawaii

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This is for working LEO's. We retirees can forget LEOSA in Hawaii
Hawaii doesn't recognize that federal law can supersede state law on the authority of police to carry guns.
Honolulu, HI - Following New Jersey's recently-revised ban on police officers possessing guns, new attention has been brought to states with strict gun laws for law enforcement officers.
Standing out from the rest of the states is Hawaii, with their refusal to recognize the provisions of the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA).
LEOSA was "designed to protect officers and their families from vindictive criminals, and to allow thousands of equipped, trained and certified law enforcement officers, whether on-duty, off-duty or retired, to carry concealed firearms in situations where they can respond immediately to a crime across state and other jurisdictional lines."
The purpose of the law was to pre-empt states from restricting the type of ammunition that officers could carry off duty, and allow them to carry their weapons in any state without running afoul of any state laws.
Hawaii's attorney general's office says that the federal law doesn't actually pre-empt state law.
According to Hawaii's Department of the Attorney General, if police officers from out of state are not on duty, then they are not actually considered to be police officers and LEOSA doesn't apply to them.
"If you are not on official duty with your governmental law enforcement agency and you are carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926B, you are not considered a 'law enforcement officer' in the State of Hawaii. The Hawaii Revised Statutes will be applied to you as if you were a 'civilian' with no law enforcement powers," the state Attorney General memo says.
But even if a law enforcement officer is on duty, they aren't in the clear. That's because the state doesn't recognize that LEOSA can supersede state law, so on-duty officers need to comply with state law in order to carry their guns in Hawaii.
That means if an on-duty officer is in possession of a gun in the state for more than 5 days, they are required to register their gun with the chief of police in the county where they are staying. They also may not possess a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
If the on-duty out-of-state officer is stopped by a local police officer, the local officer may take possession of the other officer's weapon until the out-of-state officer's agency can verify that they are on official duty.
U.S. Representative Don Bacon (R-Nebraska) attempted to pass amendments to LEOSA to address improper interpretations, but the amendments died with the end of the 115th Congress.
P.S. LEOSA does state that all state restrictions such as magazine capacity and ammunition restrictions, must be obeyed when in those states.
 
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I'm not going to fly to Hawaii just to test this, but,

What the Atty Gen SAYS is not law...

What the Atty Gen's MEMO says is not law.

For a out of state visitor, be him/her active duty or LEOSA and have his/her weapon seized by a local police officer, would be in violation of the 4th, 5th and 14th section 1. amendments.

I, unfortunately, did not get to be appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court, so I cannot officially rule on this...:(...But I know how I would rule if I was.:D


WuzzFuzz
 
LEOSA allows the carrying of HP ammo, however magazine capacity isn't protected. As stated above AG opinions are just opinions. Further, LEOSA merely creates an "affirmative defense" so proceed with caution in anti states.

Also not wanting to test the waters in HI, I would still be interested in knowing what the attitudes of the local heat is on the subject. In most anti states, there's usually a huge divergence in opinion between the AG and the actual enforcers.


"Can I carry any type of firearm or ammunition under this law?

No. The exemption provided under this Federal law applies to the carriage of concealed firearms only. The definition of "firearm" in this statute specifically excludes machine guns, silencers, explosives or other destructive devices as these terms are defined in Federal law. However, the Federal law does extend the exemption to allow the carriage of ammunition "not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act." This means that qualified active and retired law enforcement officers may carry ammunition in States which may have prohibited the possession of certain ammunition by persons not actively serving in law enforcement within that State.

Am I also exempt from State laws prohibiting the possession or use of "high capacity" magazines?
No. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has ruled that State and local laws and regulations applying to magazines do apply and the exemption provided by LEOSA applies only to firearms and ammunition."

https://fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf
 
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How about Hawaii, NJ & CA leave the USA and start their country?

I believe they already have.

On a more serious note, LEOSA or not, I would just assume Hawaii is a no-guns state, at least for the near term. As is true elsewhere, it is possible their state law and AG opinion would not withstand judicial scrutiny, but who wants to be the test case?
 
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Me, me, me!!!!!

... it is possible their state law and AG opinion would not withstand judicial scrutiny, but who wants to be the test case?
(emphasis added)

Sign me up! Happy to be the test case. Everyone please send me $$$ so I can travel there once again. :p

In all seriousness, I did carry there two times in my crimefighting days pre-LEOSA. Have not had the occasion to carry there (though I did visit) since LEOSA was enacted. And I will now carry if I visit again...and I very likely will. It is simply a magnificent place to visit.

The pompous blowhards who think their state laws trump federal will have their comeuppance at some point. And the arrested person who carried per LEOSA and was charged will likely own a piece of state property once the dust is settled.

Be safe.
 
The wife and I were just talking about maybe branching out to find somewhere new for our mid winter warm up breaks...it's been Kauai for years and we enjoy it every time. This just made up our minds. Time for somewhere new.
 
The operative words are "affirmative defense". That means that you have a good chance of being acquitted AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND JAILED, AND YOUR PROPERTY HAS BEEN SEIZED AND FORFEITED.

I do not wish to be the "test case", thank you very much. Hawaii will have to get along without my support.
 
EXTRA..EXTRA..Read all about it!!!

So far in N.J, since the ban went into effect there banning mags over 10, and all persons required to turn in their banned 10 bullit magazines. As of December 28...NO MAGS HAVE BEEN TURNED IN.:eek:

I recon that law there was all for naught, since there were/are not any of those such magazines there in that state..:rolleyes:


WOW...imagine that!!!!!!


WuzzFuzz
 
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So far in N.J, since the ban went into effect there banning mags over 10, and all persons required to turn in their banned 10 bullit magazines. As of December 28...NO MAGS HAVE BEEN TURNED IN.:eek:

I recon that law there was all for naught, since there were/are not any of those such magazines there in that state..:rolleyes:


WOW...imagine that!!!!!!


WuzzFuzz

I am not surprised, but it is hard to know exactly what it means. Some folks will simply keep their mags and either hide them or use them and risk the legal consequences. Others (most, I would assume?) will have the mags altered so they comply while others or will sell them out of state. I expect some people may simply trash them rather than turn them in.

I don't think we can automatically assume that everyone is refusing to comply.

Please note...these comments are not in any way meant to support the absurd law there or anywhere else it appears.

By the way, if you were going to turn them in, what is the procedure? Drive down to the local P.D. and hand them over to the guy at the desk, or what?

Sorry to participate in the thread hijack.
 
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I have seen the argument that LEOSA is an affirmative defense and I am not convinced that the research was well done. It's been a while since I considered it, probably 5 years, so my memory of the details is limited. As a police legal advisor, I would take and express a very negative view of any officer who arrested a cop or retiree with valid LEOSA creds for carrying. Around here, that would have a pretty negative impact on one's career .. Brady/Giglio disclosure at a minimum, and a real risk of unemployment and loss of certification.

I recall when it was enacted the "Chief" at Seattle PD at the time (Kerlikowske) having a complete fit, and not knowing that LEOSA is not as broad as Washington law with regard to out of state officers (they get the same exemptions as in state). He was not the sharpest tool in the shed.
 
And good luck with the pending felony . . .

I'm not going to fly to Hawaii just to test this, but,

What the Atty Gen SAYS is not law...

What the Atty Gen's MEMO says is not law.

For a out of state visitor, be him/her active duty or LEOSA and have his/her weapon seized by a local police officer, would be in violation of the 4th, 5th and 14th section 1. amendments.

I, unfortunately, did not get to be appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court, so I cannot officially rule on this...:(...But I know how I would rule if I was.:D


WuzzFuzz
 
"... I don't think we can automatically assume that everyone is refusing to comply.

...By the way, if you were going to turn them in, what is the procedure? Drive down to the local P.D. and hand them over to the guy at the desk, or what?"

Since I am sadly a life-long resident of NJ, I need to toss in my opinion. Since NJ and Hawaii are both prime examples of states challenging federal authority (at the bare minimum) on the issue of LEOSA, this really isn't a thread hijack.

Technically, until the Governor pardons every single LEO in the state, every single LEO that took their duty weapon home with them during this 2 week period still faces the prospect (and should, IMHO) be charged with the felony possession of these magazines, because THAT WAS THE LAW! I am not anti-LEO, but I am law-abiding, what is applied to one should be applied to all!

When the large capacity magazine ban (LCMB) went into effect, we had 180 days to comply. In that 180 period, we were given a hollow grace period ... our homes could not be raided for non-compliance. However, if we were stopped en route to: a range, gun shop, post office or other common carrier, or the police station in order to comply with the options given us, and found to be in possession of the magazines, we could be charged with the felony, and face 18 months of mandatory prison time for each LCMB item, plus the financial penalty. Under the law, if anyone opted to surrender said magazines under a specific procedure: we had to inform the police by written correspondence stating when we would be arriving with the contraband for surrender ... meaning we had to accept the possibility that we could be providing Sylvester with the spring trap and bait for a snag. Technically, with the options given, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OF KNOWING how many really did comply with the new law.

In my opinion, this legislation was written in a manner as to violate Miranda v Arizona, every aspect of this legislation stunk worse than a fresh manure pile!

What scares me is that I foresee NJ enforcing this ban on law-abiding citizens and non-resident LEOs (and retired LEOs) while quickly plea bargaining away the magazine charges when prosecuting criminals!
 
@Muss,

With respect to Miranda, as I covered it in college, it came across to me as a method of prevention of self incrimination. Most lawyers in the state tended to recommend to affected owners to hold off taking action to comply, and to wait to hear how the Supremes ruled. I honestly think that the ruling from the Third Circuit was totally unexpected. Little guidance came from the state association or the 2A society much more than a week before the law became enforceable.

The only avenue in the law involving approved methods of required that any owner of the contraband magazines identified themselves, thereby self-incriminating themselves. Prior to the enforcement date, the only idea that the State had of who possessed contraband magazines was from the "list" they compiled from completed pistol purchase permits that identified owners of handguns typically offered with 10+ magazines. This information now identified owners of handguns capable of utilizing (or came with) contraband magazines. With the exception of "assault weapons" registered in compliance with the '91 Florio Assault Weapons ban, the State had no clue of who possessed rifles capable of utilizing high capacity magazines.
 
Muss,

If I resided in Free America, I would say yes. But in NJ I have seen too much abuse of the law to trust the legal system. NJ enforces NJ law with a total disregard for legal principles and federal law. By the time that the federal courts hear an appeal of NJ abuse of the law, one's life can already be destroyed! As demonstrated by the Third Circuit's ruling in the magazine appeal, there is no guarantee they will take accepted legal precedent and principles into consideration in their ruling.

I may have a better degree of faith in the federal appeals process when the court hears and rules on the appeal of a Florida senior that accidentally strayed into the state, stopped for a window tint violation, then searched and arrested based on probable cause based on the sight of an out-of-state carry permit!
 
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