Loading .357 lead for rifles

[Postman10mm]

I’m considering picking up a .357 Marlin 1895 lever gun.

I load MBC 158 gr LSWC over 5.0 grains of HP38 for all my .357 wheelguns.

When researching loading data, I was surprised that Hogdon’s lists maximum 231/HP38 charges at 5.0 for handguns, but cuts their max load to 4.5 grains for rifles. Loads remain the same for pistol/rifle when using jacketed 158 grain bullets.

Is there a reason to download lead for rifles? The whole point to matching calibers between guns is to facilitate the use of the same ammo.

 

[Pisgah]

I’m considering picking up a .357 Marlin 1895 lever gun.

I load MBC 158 gr LSWC over 5.0 grains of HP38 for all my .357 wheelguns.

When researching loading data, I was surprised that Hogdon’s lists maximum 231/HP38 charges at 5.0 for handguns, but cuts their max load to 4.5 grains for rifles. Loads remain the same for pistol/rifle when using jacketed 158 grain bullets.

Is there a reason to download lead for rifles? The whole point to matching calibers between guns is to facilitate the use of the same ammo.

I assume you mean an 1894 Marlin.

The only reason I can think of is leading.

Velocities with a longer barrel are substantially higher, and in their load experimentation the leading may have become excessive at the higher velocity with that bullet.

 

[Erich]

I find I get leading with hardcasts at varying velocities, but you throw them over 2k fps w/o a gas check, and you're going to have to get the Chore Boy out in fifty rounds. So, I use gas checks - and throw them fast as I want. Man, I love the .357 in a levergun.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, I don't run mine as fast as Erich but I do have a Marlin 1894, Cowboy Special in 357Mag that I shoot lead out of a lot.

My load uses a faster powder than normally associated with carbine loads but I get good results with my homecast H&G @290BB, 160gr SWC, Sharpe design bullet. I push mine at 1600fps or just a bit lower and with White Label Lube's BAC lube, I have no leading from this rifle.

But, that last 400fps that Erich may be worth the effort.

 

[Paul5388]

I have a hard time getting over 2200 fps and that's with 125 gr bullets, but I use 22" of barrel. I've run some of Lynn's 158 gr LSWC at 1750 fps without leading, but they fit the bore and that blue crayon lube of his may be a factor in non-leading.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Is there a reason to download lead for rifles? The whole point to matching calibers between guns is to facilitate the use of the same ammo.

I'm also betting it's to minimize the likelihood of leading the barrel. I've shot 150gr sierra and 170gr Sierra bullets fairly fast in my Marlin without leading but they are Hard Cast. The 180gr bullets I'm shooting are Gas Checked.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Marlin rifles usually feature the "Micro-Groove" rifling, which does not generally do well with lead bullets (cast or swaged), although performing excellently with jacketed bullets.

Micro-Groove rifling consists of multiple grooves that are very shallow, when compared to conventional cut rifling. Micro-Groove rifling performs very well with jacketed slugs, and allows for significantly greater performance with equivalent loads, as compared to conventional (deeper) rifling cuts.

Cast lead bullets perform their best in barrels having conventional cut rifling with the width of lands approximating the width of grooves, and then only when the bullet body is of proper diameter to match the groove diameter (or up to 0.001" over) and the forward portion of the bullet matched to diameter at the lands of the rifling.

Lubrication is critical to cast bullet performance, and this applies especially in rifle loads, given the longer barrel lengths that require far more lubrication than any handgun tube.

Colonel E.H. Harrison did a great deal of research work on cast bullets in rifles, published by the NRA as "Cast Bullets" about 35 years ago. This difinitive work included much research work with different types of barrels and rifling, including Marlin's Micro-Groove barrels. Highly recommended reading for anyone considering the use of cast bullets in rifles.

Best regards.

 

[Snapping Twig]

All due respect to the post above, Marlins run a fat bore and proper bullet size is crucial.

Microgroove works very well indeed with lead/cast IF it is sized properly.

You can push a soft lead egg sinker through the bore with a wood dowel to find the size or you can shoot .358/.359 and see where that gets you and that will probably be enough.

Gas checks are recommended for loads above 1500fps, but it's a grey area and some go a bit faster with good results while others can't.

Marlin owners forum is a good place for these questions and they can guide you through the learning process.

My MG 1894 .44 wasn't supposed to hit the side of a barn from the inside, but with proper sized bullets, I can shoot fly specks at 100 yards all day long. Pity the previous owner didn't know about bullet sizing in MG barrels. His loss was my gain.

 

[Skip Sackett]

The "Cowboy Special" versions of the 1894 have Ballard rifling and it is stamped right on the side of the barrel. The 357Mag one I have shoots the same lead loads as my wife's M586 6". Out of the handgun, I get 1280fps, again, with no leading.

The oversize barrels are a problem but not in this caliber. I also own a 44Mag, actually, I have had a bunch of them, and I currently load for 5 of them for hunting, and I can get none of them to shoot lead at the velocities I want from those rifles. I didn't get leading but I did get poor accuracy. 1900fps with a 240-269gr LSWC is nothing to shake a stick at but 3" @ 100 yards wasn't good enough for me.

The 357Mag will hold 2" all day long with the previously mentioned load. Nothing to shake a stick at either. Besides, it is cool looking to be shooting a lever gun!

 

[Erich]

FWIW, my .357 levergun is a Rossi/Navy Arms, not a Marlin. I've always been leery of the Microgroove bores for cast loads, but this is based on others' reports, not my experience.

 

[Paul5388]

NEF/H&R rifles tend to have micro groove barrels, but they still shoot acceptably with proper fitting bullets and/or gas checked bullets. This is a 100 yard group I shot with some Beartooth 250 gr bullets.

The shallow rifling tends to make cast bullets strip or slide if they get too much velocity on them. The gas check allows a better "grip" to be obtained by the rifling. Going to a heavier bullet will compensate somewhat for the velocity limitation of around 1600 fps.

BTW, that's 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun, not grams.

 

[Snapping Twig]

The "Cowboy Special" versions of the 1894 have Ballard rifling and it is stamped right on the side of the barrel. The 357Mag one I have shoots the same lead loads as my wife's M586 6". Out of the handgun, I get 1280fps, again, with no leading.

The oversize barrels are a problem but not in this caliber. I also own a 44Mag, actually, I have had a bunch of them, and I currently load for 5 of them for hunting, and I can get none of them to shoot lead at the velocities I want from those rifles. I didn't get leading but I did get poor accuracy. 1900fps with a 240-269gr LSWC is nothing to shake a stick at but 3" @ 100 yards wasn't good enough for me.

The 357Mag will hold 2" all day long with the previously mentioned load. Nothing to shake a stick at either. Besides, it is cool looking to be shooting a lever gun!

That's good knowledge Skip. I suspected as such, but wasn't certain.

My friend bought a new 1894C and I loaded him 100 rounds of varied charges and weights/design, all sized .358, and shipped them off to sunny Florida.

I sent him some non checked Lyman 358160 over 5g W231 in a mag case, some checked Lyman 358160 over 15g W296 and some Lyman 358429 over 15g W296.

He reported that the non checked 358160 weren't too accurate, the 358429 were acceptable, but not stellar and the checked 358160 were comprable to his best factory offerings of Leverlution (sp) in group size and POA/POI.

So I think we found his load.

He wants to experiment with RD's new 170g .357 boolit when the mould becomes available. I can't blame him, it looks good and it was custom made for Marlins.

 

[Postman10mm]

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

The 1894 (not 1895) I'm looking at is listed as having Ballard-type rifling, so that should not be an issue.

The Hodgdon downloading of Hp-38/Win 231 is a mystery to me when compared to their other loads.


Max 158 gr LSWC loads are as follows:

HS-6
Rifle 7.0 gr 1224 FPS 15,500 CUP
Pistol 7.0 gr 1106 FPS 15,500 CUP

Universal
Rifle 6.7 gr 1380 FPS 34,600 CUP
Pistol 6.2 gr 1247 FPS 1380 FPS 33,400 CUP

Titegroup
Rifle 5.0 gr 1220 FPS 24,900 CUP
Pistol 5.0 gr 1108 FPS 24,900 CUP

HP-38
Rifle 4.5 gr 1059 FPS 16,200 CUP
Pistol 5.0 gr 1109 FPS 23,900 CUP

 

[Snapping Twig]

W231/HP38 is a faster powder than the others you listed. Typically a fast powder is not a good choice for magnum loads as slower powders are more efficient at accelerating the bullet by virtue of their burning curve.

Pressures get very high very fast with faster burning powders, so limiting their use to a moderate velocity is a good CYA from a business standpoint.

Can you load magnums with Bullseye or W231? Of course you can, but top velocity will still be below top velocity with a more suitable powder. The downside is that things can go wrong fast.

I have done it with W231 and the .357, but I will not give the data here as it was a risk I took and accepted before I tried it. I did it for no other reason than to prove to myself it could be done and now I stay with slow powders for magnum duties.

So, the manufacturer gives you a load in a comfortable pressure range whereby you can make a small error and still remain intact. Like I said, CYA.

 

[38-44HD45]

I bought a Marlin 1894 .357 carbine about a year ago, specifically for the purpose of loading cast, gas check bullets very hot in it. My load is a 187gr. Cast Performance gas check bullet over a charge of an old lot of WW 296 I'll not divulge here. It runs at 1920 fps., does not lead, and is extremely accurate. If you want to hotrod cast bullets from a rifle, you want slow powders.

 

[Rule3]

My 357 Marlin has problems feeding the MBC LSWC bullet. The 44 Mag version does not seem to mind.

I switched to the(rifle bullet) #1 Ranger 158gr RNFP which feed smoothly and no leading problem. The make just as good a hole and work fine in revolvers also.

Missouri Bullet Company

 

[Postman10mm]

What powder would make a good compromise for both revolver and rifle loads with a 158 gr LSWC?

I'm not looking to hotrod the round out of either, I want accuracy for plinking.

I've experienced poor accuracy using below 5.0 grains of HP-38 in my .357 revolvers.

 

[Erich]

What powder would make a good compromise for both revolver and rifle loads with a 158 gr LSWC?

2400.

I use Lil' Gun for the hot carbine loads - they work fine in the handgun as well, but the spreads are pretty big. 2400 gives me a nice, solid loading from either, but isn't scary in any way.

 

[38-44HD45]

Erich is right about 2400. I like AA#9, also, for "mid-range" loads, but in general, I don't load .357s any way but hot.

 

[kenjen]

my first marlin 357 had the mico barrel and i could not get it to shoot with any accuracy at all, sold it and got the 1984c in hopes of better accuracy only to be disapointed untill i sluged the barrel and found that i needed to use bullets sized to .356-.357 instead of the normal .358, that went from 7-8" groups to 1.5" groups at 100yds. using 158gr. lswc. and a healthy dose of 2400, getting a little over 1800fps. and very little leading.