Locked breech pistols in .32 ACP/7.65 Browning

[LVSteve]

There has been considerable muttering around the gun forums about the merits of building locked breech guns in .380 ACP. Well, I have little doubt that they have their place. Compared to the straight blowback designs they are easy to rack and exhibit reduced recoil.

Then my mind went wandering to .32 ACP. Hey, if it works for .380, why not? I could only find three pistols chambered in .32 that use a locked breech mechanism.

Star SI/SIS
Taurus PT132
Frommer Stop

Anybody got any more? Did Llama do one, for example.

 

[ABN 70]

Kel-Tec P-32

 

[DWalt]

Remington made its old Model 51 pocket pistol in .32 ACP. It made a lot more of them in .380. It has a locked breech, but not made on the Browning system. Some consider it a hybrid blowback/locked breech, as it does start out as a blowback for a small fraction of an inch.

Seems to me that Llama may have once made a small locked breech .32, but I would have to look it up to be sure.

 

[LVSteve]

Remington made its old Model 51 pocket pistol in .32 ACP. It made a lot more of them in .380. It has a locked breech, but not made on the Browning system. Some consider it a hybrid blowback/locked breech, as it does start out as a blowback for a small fraction of an inch.

Seems to me that Llama may have once made a small locked breech .32, but I would have to look it up to be sure.

Doh!!! I should have remembered the Model 51 given that I just took my 9mm R51 to the range on Monday.

As for Llama, this page comes up snake eyes on a .32 locked breech gun, but they did make them in .380.

llamapage

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I wonder if an M&P380 in .32 would sell if they could make it proportionally smaller......

 

[2152hq]

The Savage pistols are a locked breech design though some will call them a 'delayed' recoil system.
I don't get into nit-pick word descriptions.
They're not straight blowback pistols....

STAR Model DKI was in 32acp Locked breech.
The same pistol as the Model DK (Starfire) .380.
Same locked breech system as the Model S and SI
(Star used the letter 'I' to designate the caliber .32acp on pistol models)

added....AFAIK LLama didn't make a locked breech in 32acp.
They made the small 1911 type in both blowback .380acp (Model III, IIIA). & ,the same size/style pistol as a locked breech .380 (Model VI).
The 32acp was in blowback only AFAIK and given a Model X-A designation.

 

[scooter123]

I have a Sig Sauer P290 in 80 and it is a locked breech 380. Racking the slide is nearly light as a feather. The downside is that it's the most unreliable pistol I own and in good conscious I can't sell it because it's so bad. BTW only paid 199.95 for it at a Cabela's Black Friday sell so it's not the end of the world.

As for the cause, it's the locked breech design and a poor job by Sig of trying to revise a 9mm Parabellum pistol into a 80. The slide is just too heavy and the result is that ejection isn't an ejection, it's a dribble. At least one time per magazine there will be a shell in the ejection port jamming the pistol. Sometimes it's in the chamber in front of the ejector. When that happens the only way to clear the barrel is with a pencil or range rod. What is really sad is the double action trigger on this pistol is a near duplicate of a well broken in S&W revolver. About 9 lbs. of weight and very smooth without any stacking.

To sum it up, while a locked breech 32 might sound like a good idea I'm a bit doubtful if the 32 ACP has enough energy to function reliably in a locked breech design.

PS; I do reload and did some "+P" reloads in 380 for the P290 and that still didn't solve the ejection issues. So, at this point I'm contemplating on using one of the Bridgeports at work to do some milling on the slide to get some weight out of it.

 

[DumpStick]

To sum it up, while a locked breech 32 might sound like a good idea I'm a bit doubtful if the 32 ACP has enough energy to function reliably in a locked breech design.
.

Oh, I don't know about that. I have a Star SI, one that came here before 1968. It's a locked breech 32 ACP.
I don't have thousands of rounds through it, but I have fired several hundred, with never a bobble or hiccup.

I do shoot only European rounds through it, Fiocchi being a favorite. I think the European rounds are loaded slightly hotter than the US ammo. Perhaps that gives enough extra oomph to ensure proper functioning.

Or, perhaps it's just an example of Sig not getting the engineering exactly right.

 

[LVSteve]

I have a Sig Sauer P290 in 80 and it is a locked breech 380. Racking the slide is nearly light as a feather. The downside is that it's the most unreliable pistol I own and in good conscious I can't sell it because it's so bad. BTW only paid 199.95 for it at a Cabela's Black Friday sell so it's not the end of the world.

As for the cause, it's the locked breech design and a poor job by Sig of trying to revise a 9mm Parabellum pistol into a 80. The slide is just too heavy and the result is that ejection isn't an ejection, it's a dribble. At least one time per magazine there will be a shell in the ejection port jamming the pistol. Sometimes it's in the chamber in front of the ejector. When that happens the only way to clear the barrel is with a pencil or range rod. What is really sad is the double action trigger on this pistol is a near duplicate of a well broken in S&W revolver. About 9 lbs. of weight and very smooth without any stacking.

To sum it up, while a locked breech 32 might sound like a good idea I'm a bit doubtful if the 32 ACP has enough energy to function reliably in a locked breech design.

PS; I do reload and did some "+P" reloads in 380 for the P290 and that still didn't solve the ejection issues. So, at this point I'm contemplating on using one of the Bridgeports at work to do some milling on the slide to get some weight out of it.

That's weird. Our P290RS has been 100% with Fiocchi 95gr FMJ. Ejection seemed positive enough last time I shot it.

 

[DWalt]

The Savage pistols are a locked breech design though some will call them a 'delayed' recoil system.

The only thing that delays (and it might not even do that) the slide movement is the slight torque of the bullet as it rotates against the rifling. Some tests indicate that there is no slide retardation noticeable and that the Savage pistol is fundamentally a blowback design.

For a .32 or .380 there is little to be gained from a locked breech design vs. blowback.

 

[Mrnurse]

My Kel Tec 32 is super Small, runs most ammo given it... did i mention its a SUPER CCW weapon for 8 Yds and less.

 

[LVSteve]

For a .32 or .380 there is little to be gained from a locked breech design vs. blowback.

...except a dramatic reduction in felt recoil.

 

[JayFramer]

My Kel Tec 32 is super Small, runs most ammo given it... did i mention its a SUPER CCW weapon for 8 Yds and less.

Mine was a SUPER piece of junk.

 

[Breakaway500]

I’ve owned 2 Kel-tec p32s for over 20 years. Thousands of rounds. NO problems. None. Eats any kind of ammo. You can get any part but the serial numbered frame directly from Kel-tec if needed. I also own two Kel-Tec P3ATs and same story: flawless. Same with both my Kel-Tec KSGs.

Guess I’m just plain ole lucky or blessed! Either way I’ll take it.

 

[2152hq]

I don't believe that torque of the bullet has anything to do with the 1907 Savage locking system.

The bbl has a narrow cam lug on the top and wider abutment on the bottom. These are right above and below the chamber.
They mate with matching cuts in the slide above and frame below so when the slide is closed, it and the bbl are locked together.
The bbl rotates a few degrees as the upper can lug rides into and seats into the upper cam slot in the slide. It's not much,,only 5 degrees cam or so.
The rearward movement of the bbl and slide together/locked when fired is very slight, but there is no doubt that it occurs. They move together as one unit locked by that angled cam lug.

That's a locked breech. Only when the wider bottom bbl lug strikes the frame cut does the bbl separate&unlock from the slide. The slide continues rearward at that point and the bbl moves back to the forward position
Then the slide unlocks from the bbl as the cam angle rotates the bbl,,the slide continues rearward along with the separate breechblock within it.

A delayed blowback is how it's often described. But the slide and bbl are locked even if only for for that short distance and instant . All done purposely by the designer.
He could have simply made another blowback pistol,,but he didn't.

I agree, there seems to be little gained by complicating what is needed to contain those cartridge(s). But perhaps getting around patents or others designs is sometimes necessary, or they just wanted something different to market.

 

[hardknocks]

Llama

The Savage pistols are a locked breech design though some will call them a 'delayed' recoil system.
I don't get into nit-pick word descriptions.
They're not straight blowback pistols....

STAR Model DKI was in 32acp Locked breech.
The same pistol as the Model DK (Starfire) .380.
Same locked breech system as the Model S and SI
(Star used the letter 'I' to designate the caliber .32acp on pistol models)

added....AFAIK LLama didn't make a locked breech in 32acp.
They made the small 1911 type in both blowback .380acp (Model III, IIIA). & ,the same size/style pistol as a locked breech .380 (Model VI).
The 32acp was in blowback only AFAIK and given a Model X-A designation.

I have the llama XA 32acp
Im not sure how its classified, kinda like a baby 1911 but it doesn't have the barrel lug.
Wouldn't this be a locked breech?
Im asking and trying to understand, i can take a pic if aomeone wants to see.
Anyhow its a blast to shoot. I have only shot about 300 rounds with no malfunctions and 3 or 4 types of ammo.
Made in 1980.

 

[LVSteve]

I have the llama XA 32acp
Im not sure how its classified, kinda like a baby 1911 but it doesn't have the barrel lug.
Wouldn't this be a locked breech?
Im asking and trying to understand, i can take a pic if aomeone wants to see.
Anyhow its a blast to shoot. I have only shot about 300 rounds with no malfunctions and 3 or 4 types of ammo.
Made in 1980.

I looked up a field strip of a Llama XA and it looks to be a straight blowback gun.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgqGKMXFPak[/ame]

 

[hardknocks]

Blowback

The llama barrel does not move back and down like my 1911 and has no swinging lug.
I guess in a way its like alot of small caliber single action guns like the browning design from earlier times.
I didnt look closely until now at the llama.

 

[DWalt]

The Llama XA .32 is about 99% Browning, except that the barrel does not have a swinging link, and does not lock up to the slide. Therefore it is blowback, not short recoil. I commented in an earlier posting that I remembered that there may have been a Llama .32 with a locked breech but that is incorrect. Most (but not all) blowback pistols have the barrel affixed to the frame, but the Llama XA is one of those which does not.

Regarding the Savage Model 1907 (and later versions), it is most definitely not a locked breech pistol, and it was never represented as such by its inventor Elbert Searle, who called a "delayed blowback" and that is probably an apt description, albeit the delay is nearly insignificant. You can put a rod down the barrel of a 1907 and press on the breech face, and all you can feel is only a very slight resistance of the slide movement after about 1mm. The idea was that the torque (twist) force of the bullet's movement in the barrel (which can rotate) would create a slight mechanical disadvantage between the barrel and the slide (which are linked together by a lug on the barrel) that could create a slight delay of the slide's movement due to blowback, but there is no locking effect in the sense of the Browning swinging link design. It could be described as more of a braking effect if anything, and could be compared to lightly tapping the brake pedal on a car in movement.

 

[SquarePizza]

I have really wanted to see glock offer the G42 in 32acp. I think their sizes are perfect for each other, and using a hellcat or sig p365 magazine stack geometry, maybe glock could get 10 rounds or 32acp into the G42.