Rastoff
US Veteran
Is the M&P 10 suitable for long distance shooting? Specifically 500-1,000 yards?
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Long distance shooting?
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WA101
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To the OP, I will say definitively, "maybe".
I am seeing a large number of Mk110s at Camp Perry during the 1000 yard matches, especially amongst the military. I have not really followed them closely, since due to injuries, I will never be able to shoot one effectively. (Yes, I realize that my inattentiveness is a bit shallow.)
I think that it is safe to say that your AR10 should have some specific characteristics if you wish to reach out to 1000 yards. These characteristics can prove very beneficial at 500 yards and beyond. Your rifle should have a Varmint weight/style barrel, in order to minimize the harmonic vibrations that destroy long range accuracy. Your barrel should be at least 24" long, if not longer. Barrel length will contribute to the muzzle velocity of the round, allowing the powder to burn completely. Out to 600 yards, a 168gr HPBT should be accurate. Beyond 600 yards, I would suggest using a 175 to 215gr HPBT or VLD bullet, which you need to keep supersonic at the target. I find that I can keep a 175gr HPBT supersonic at 1000 yards out of my Remington 700 Varmint 308 with a 26" barrel. This should work with a barrel twist of 1:10 - 1:12".
I am seeing a large number of Mk110s at Camp Perry during the 1000 yard matches, especially amongst the military. I have not really followed them closely, since due to injuries, I will never be able to shoot one effectively. (Yes, I realize that my inattentiveness is a bit shallow.)
I think that it is safe to say that your AR10 should have some specific characteristics if you wish to reach out to 1000 yards. These characteristics can prove very beneficial at 500 yards and beyond. Your rifle should have a Varmint weight/style barrel, in order to minimize the harmonic vibrations that destroy long range accuracy. Your barrel should be at least 24" long, if not longer. Barrel length will contribute to the muzzle velocity of the round, allowing the powder to burn completely. Out to 600 yards, a 168gr HPBT should be accurate. Beyond 600 yards, I would suggest using a 175 to 215gr HPBT or VLD bullet, which you need to keep supersonic at the target. I find that I can keep a 175gr HPBT supersonic at 1000 yards out of my Remington 700 Varmint 308 with a 26" barrel. This should work with a barrel twist of 1:10 - 1:12".
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Irrifleman pretty much covered it. The rifle has the potential and can reach out pretty far out of the box but to get to 1,000 yards, you will need more than how the factory built it.
At minimum, a high quality trigger and the barrel free floated but I suspect the rifle may need more than that to reach out that far.
The video posted above shows that it can reach out to 700+. In other videos, the guy in the video is very careful to make it known that long range shooting is challenging. Even with the right setup, it will take some time to "dial" it in to adjust for range conditions at that time. Hitting the target with the first shot, while possible. is not likely.
At minimum, a high quality trigger and the barrel free floated but I suspect the rifle may need more than that to reach out that far.
The video posted above shows that it can reach out to 700+. In other videos, the guy in the video is very careful to make it known that long range shooting is challenging. Even with the right setup, it will take some time to "dial" it in to adjust for range conditions at that time. Hitting the target with the first shot, while possible. is not likely.
When you get to shooting a .308 at those ranges you
better have 3 things.
Barrel
Trigger
Bedding
Add GOOD Glass.
Some practice and if the shooter can do his/her part
no reason why not. You might have a good barrel out of
the box. Replace your trigger with one of several good
after market triggers and check your bedding.
Scope it up the right way with good glass and head to
the range. Study the wind at these distances. Have fun !!
Long distance shooting is a blast.
Chuck
better have 3 things.
Barrel
Trigger
Bedding
Add GOOD Glass.
Some practice and if the shooter can do his/her part
no reason why not. You might have a good barrel out of
the box. Replace your trigger with one of several good
after market triggers and check your bedding.
Scope it up the right way with good glass and head to
the range. Study the wind at these distances. Have fun !!
Long distance shooting is a blast.
Chuck
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Not to be a smart alec but what bedding? As far as I know, no AR rifle of any kind is bedded in any sort of a way.
The only "bedding" that I use is an "accu-wedge". They go for about $5, and I believe that they are an absolute necessity for the serious, accuracy oriented AR shooter!
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Ok, I get you.
Rastoff, you may find this video interesting. It's not an M&P10 but the general idea is covered.
https://www.full30.com/video/72d12e929079ed8d72f6868d3faa6b08
Rastoff, you may find this video interesting. It's not an M&P10 but the general idea is covered.
https://www.full30.com/video/72d12e929079ed8d72f6868d3faa6b08
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Thanks for the info. I have put on order an 18" barreled upper with a DPMS pattern lower. This may not be the most precision a person can get, but I'm going to see what it will do.
Here is another article about barrel length that guided me toward this decision: The Truth About Barrel Length, Muzzle Velocity and Accuracy - The Truth About Guns It was an eye opener for me. I would always have fallen on the side of longer being better, but now I'm not so sure.
Once I get the whole thing built, I'll do some shooting and see what we see.
Here is another article about barrel length that guided me toward this decision: The Truth About Barrel Length, Muzzle Velocity and Accuracy - The Truth About Guns It was an eye opener for me. I would always have fallen on the side of longer being better, but now I'm not so sure.
Once I get the whole thing built, I'll do some shooting and see what we see.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
It depends on the round. Some do better with a longer barrel and others see no benefit or an actual detriment. That's where always looking to learn more comes in handy. 
Hello. I offer this not to be critical of your selection, but to suggest that your selection could be based on flawed logic, and not perform as you anticipate.
I just read the article link that you included concerning barrel length and accuracy, and I did try to view it objectively. I am afraid that a number of premises, and the supporting scientific data is misleading. I state this based on over 40 years of smallbore and high power rifle competitions, in both a competitor and observer capacity.
I share the following observations:
1. You don't see short barreled 10/22 type carbines competing with Anschutz style free rifles in Olympic competitions.
2. In Palma type matches, in order to keep the requisite 155gr bullets supersonic at the 800-1000 yard lines, a 28" barrel tends to be the requisite standard.
3. The cartridge and ammunition utilized focused on a distance envelope where the projectile didn't push the supersonic limits.
When I was physically able to shoot service rifle matches, I used the. 30-'06, the 308, and the 223. The 22" barrel on the M1 and M14 type rifles were sufficient to harness the bullets to stay within a 1 MOA standard. The 20" barrel on an AR15A2 was also adequate for 1 MOA performance.
Now that I must shoot F class due to my disabilities, sub MOA performance is critical in order to be competitive. At my home range, under typical conditions, I must keep a bullet at or above 1240 fps in order to control the grouping ability of my rounds. In order to keep a 0.224" 80gr HPBT supersonic at the 1000 yard line, I need a 26" barrel (my target muzzle velocity is 2840 fps). I can't come close with a 24" barrel. Ages ago, I was competitive with a 24" Remington 700 in 308, but the velocity at target was too close to the minimum supersonic velocity.
I now use a Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum and with the loads I prefer, I have pushed the supersonic barrier from 1000 yards to close to 1400 yards, and my groups are significantly tighter. This is a 26 inch barrel rifle.
Other factors to keep in mind are the rifle's leade and corresponding bullet jump, bullet weight, and barrel twist.
The higher the muzzle velocity at distance, the greater the controlability of the bullet, and the tighter the group.
Yes, the 18 inch barrel that you ordered may get your bullets to the target at distance, but the grouping and wind bucking ability may not deliver what you expect.
I just read the article link that you included concerning barrel length and accuracy, and I did try to view it objectively. I am afraid that a number of premises, and the supporting scientific data is misleading. I state this based on over 40 years of smallbore and high power rifle competitions, in both a competitor and observer capacity.
I share the following observations:
1. You don't see short barreled 10/22 type carbines competing with Anschutz style free rifles in Olympic competitions.
2. In Palma type matches, in order to keep the requisite 155gr bullets supersonic at the 800-1000 yard lines, a 28" barrel tends to be the requisite standard.
3. The cartridge and ammunition utilized focused on a distance envelope where the projectile didn't push the supersonic limits.
When I was physically able to shoot service rifle matches, I used the. 30-'06, the 308, and the 223. The 22" barrel on the M1 and M14 type rifles were sufficient to harness the bullets to stay within a 1 MOA standard. The 20" barrel on an AR15A2 was also adequate for 1 MOA performance.
Now that I must shoot F class due to my disabilities, sub MOA performance is critical in order to be competitive. At my home range, under typical conditions, I must keep a bullet at or above 1240 fps in order to control the grouping ability of my rounds. In order to keep a 0.224" 80gr HPBT supersonic at the 1000 yard line, I need a 26" barrel (my target muzzle velocity is 2840 fps). I can't come close with a 24" barrel. Ages ago, I was competitive with a 24" Remington 700 in 308, but the velocity at target was too close to the minimum supersonic velocity.
I now use a Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum and with the loads I prefer, I have pushed the supersonic barrier from 1000 yards to close to 1400 yards, and my groups are significantly tighter. This is a 26 inch barrel rifle.
Other factors to keep in mind are the rifle's leade and corresponding bullet jump, bullet weight, and barrel twist.
The higher the muzzle velocity at distance, the greater the controlability of the bullet, and the tighter the group.
Yes, the 18 inch barrel that you ordered may get your bullets to the target at distance, but the grouping and wind bucking ability may not deliver what you expect.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I hear you Ed, but what do I expect? I'm not even sure I know at this time.
As a lefty my choices become limited. Yes, there are lefty rifles out there, but they are few and far between. And, the prices go up exponentially. So, I'll admit that I'm taking a chance here.
Yes, part of this decision is the challenge as well. I have no illusions. I'm a shotgun guy first, a defensive pistol shooter second and a rank beginner rifleman. I've had many people tell me, "You can't do X with Y gun." Well, maybe I can't, but I can try. No, I'm not trying to compete in the biathlon or at Camp Perry. This is just a hobby. If I were really trying to be competitive, I'd have bought a bolt gun. I'm just trying to see if I can hit something at a longer distance with this.
Is it the best money can buy? Certainly not. Will it hit targets beyond 500 yards? I think it should be able to do that. This is an AR forums so, I thought we could talk about using an AR to do some shooting.
Also, this type of rifle lends itself to easily changing the barrel. It won't be hard to add a longer barrel if I want to later.
As a lefty my choices become limited. Yes, there are lefty rifles out there, but they are few and far between. And, the prices go up exponentially. So, I'll admit that I'm taking a chance here.
Yes, part of this decision is the challenge as well. I have no illusions. I'm a shotgun guy first, a defensive pistol shooter second and a rank beginner rifleman. I've had many people tell me, "You can't do X with Y gun." Well, maybe I can't, but I can try. No, I'm not trying to compete in the biathlon or at Camp Perry. This is just a hobby. If I were really trying to be competitive, I'd have bought a bolt gun. I'm just trying to see if I can hit something at a longer distance with this.
Is it the best money can buy? Certainly not. Will it hit targets beyond 500 yards? I think it should be able to do that. This is an AR forums so, I thought we could talk about using an AR to do some shooting.
Also, this type of rifle lends itself to easily changing the barrel. It won't be hard to add a longer barrel if I want to later.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
I think it is doable, just not as easily as with a bolt rifle. I think that is why scope makers that make scopes specific to the AR platform and the .308 round limit their BDC reticules to 800 yards. There is enough room for hold over to go further and figure MOA to be about 10" at 1,000 yards. So if you can hit within about 10" on a 24" or 36" target, you are doing very well.
I say go for it! Hell, if I can just hit the 24" target at that range I would be happy. That's a lot of distance and weather influence to deal with.
I say go for it! Hell, if I can just hit the 24" target at that range I would be happy. That's a lot of distance and weather influence to deal with.
Sorry if I came across as critical and condescending. Prior to my accident, I was competitive to a degree. Now, I am just grateful that I can get down and fire an occasional match.
After my accident, I was delusional to think that I could still shoot prone without the assistance of a bipod, so I built up an AR that was capable of shooting 1000 yard matches. I am learning a lot about reloading and precision shooting. While I did revert to a bolt gun or two for the 1000 yard line, I am not giving up. I have gone to Perry since '88, missing only '07-'11 due to injury recovery. I was never national champion quality, but I was nationally ranked ... now I am relearning the game with a few new twists. When I go out for NRA long range, it is more for the stimulation, comaraderie, investigating theories, catching up with old friends, and see what might be left on commercial row, not to mention grabbing a dinner or two at Phil's!
If I can offer a few heart felt suggestions:
1. Since You are a lefty, and not using what now may be a rare Stag Arms left hand upper, grab an A4 case deflector, it could save you a face full of hot brass!
2. Get good, quality glass. Being on fixed income, I am extremely frugal. (I have found, shooting off a bipod, that I rarely set my magnification at 1000 yards much above 12x.)
On my long range AR, I have an old El Paso Weaver T10,
On my short range Remington 700 I have an old El Paso Weaver T10,
On my mid/long range Remington 700 in 308, I have an old El Paso Weaver T16,
On my Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum I have a Viper Vortex scope (6-24x).
3. Get a Stoney Point style C.O.L. tool, and measure your rifle/barrel leade, and load your ammo so that the bullet is about 0.015-0.020" off the lands. This may mean that you have to load your ammo long, and not load it in your magazine.
4. When you try to go beyond 600 yards, switch from a 168gr HPBT to a 175-185gr HPBT, to better buck the wind.
5. If you can, try to get a few "sample packs" of the Berger. 30 VLD bullets, you may find you get unrealistic results from a 215gr VLD from your short barrel.
After my accident, I was delusional to think that I could still shoot prone without the assistance of a bipod, so I built up an AR that was capable of shooting 1000 yard matches. I am learning a lot about reloading and precision shooting. While I did revert to a bolt gun or two for the 1000 yard line, I am not giving up. I have gone to Perry since '88, missing only '07-'11 due to injury recovery. I was never national champion quality, but I was nationally ranked ... now I am relearning the game with a few new twists. When I go out for NRA long range, it is more for the stimulation, comaraderie, investigating theories, catching up with old friends, and see what might be left on commercial row, not to mention grabbing a dinner or two at Phil's!
If I can offer a few heart felt suggestions:
1. Since You are a lefty, and not using what now may be a rare Stag Arms left hand upper, grab an A4 case deflector, it could save you a face full of hot brass!
2. Get good, quality glass. Being on fixed income, I am extremely frugal. (I have found, shooting off a bipod, that I rarely set my magnification at 1000 yards much above 12x.)
On my long range AR, I have an old El Paso Weaver T10,
On my short range Remington 700 I have an old El Paso Weaver T10,
On my mid/long range Remington 700 in 308, I have an old El Paso Weaver T16,
On my Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm Remington Magnum I have a Viper Vortex scope (6-24x).
3. Get a Stoney Point style C.O.L. tool, and measure your rifle/barrel leade, and load your ammo so that the bullet is about 0.015-0.020" off the lands. This may mean that you have to load your ammo long, and not load it in your magazine.
4. When you try to go beyond 600 yards, switch from a 168gr HPBT to a 175-185gr HPBT, to better buck the wind.
5. If you can, try to get a few "sample packs" of the Berger. 30 VLD bullets, you may find you get unrealistic results from a 215gr VLD from your short barrel.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Suggestions are always welcome and I didn't think you were being condescending. I wouldn't come here if I didn't want help.
No lefty upper, but I have fired a few thousand rounds through the AR15 (M16 or M4 when in the military). I have never received hot brass in my face, but have had some brass land on my right forearm.
Brother you are preaching to the choir on this one. If I had a nickel for every time I've tried to get someone to get good glass...
I spent several months researching quality scopes prior to buying my first .308 which I sold to a friend (I only put 70 rounds through that gun). I bought a Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 with EBR mrad reticle. Kept that when I sold the rifle.
This is a tool I don't have...yet. In fact, a friend and I were just talking about leade. He has his set to .010" and says that's working good for his rifle. This is an area I know little about, but plan on learning.
I have a Dillon 550B, but I think I will go to a single stage press for .308. I'll be looking for consistency over quantity with this load.
OK, I'll keep that in mind. Based on what I've read so far, I'm going to start with 168gr HPBT bullets. I'm also going to work at 200 and 300 yards at first. I want to familiarize myself with the rifle. Plus, our local range only has a 300 yard target board. There's thousands of miles of empty desert not far away so, setting up targets at 1,000 yards or more isn't hard. I just don't feel it's wise to start at that distance.
This is all about having fun with the sport of shooting. I have a lot to learn. However, I'm a shotgun guy first, a defensive pistol shooter second and a rifle guy next. I'm so busy between Trap and teaching CCW classes that I won't get to shoot the rifle as much as I'd like. Still, it's a fun journey.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
I think your approach is a good one. Work your way out and familiarize yourself with your rifle. What works and what doesn't and what your rifle likes.
My M-308 scopes are designed specifically for for the 168 gr HPBT and I think that is why the reticule is limited to 800 yards, aside to the rifle design with a shorter than optimum barrel.
Both the 168 grain and 175grain bullets are the preferred rounds by snipers. I can certainly see where Irrifleman is coming deom with the heavier rounds for further out. The mass is needed to keep up the momentum and resist influence from atmospherics on the way to the target.
My M-308 scopes are designed specifically for for the 168 gr HPBT and I think that is why the reticule is limited to 800 yards, aside to the rifle design with a shorter than optimum barrel.
Both the 168 grain and 175grain bullets are the preferred rounds by snipers. I can certainly see where Irrifleman is coming deom with the heavier rounds for further out. The mass is needed to keep up the momentum and resist influence from atmospherics on the way to the target.
You also have to work within the twist parameters of your rifle.
In the 223, the 1:9 can handle up to 72gr out to about 600 yards. The 1:8 or 1:7 can handle up to 80gr out to about 1000 yards, as long as you load a bit hot to keep the bullet supersonic at the target.
In the 30s, while a 1:12 is supposed to be better with 150gr and lighter bullets, my 308 bolt guns are tack drivers with 168s and 175s. The 1:11 is supposed to be a good compromise twist for 150gr to 168gr. The 1:10 is supposed to be perfect for 168s and 175s out to 1000.
In my 7mm Remington Magnum, I am limited by a 1:9.25, which limits me to 168s or lighter. My rifle would have greater heavy bullet flexibility with either a 1:9 or a 1:8.5.
I would suggest that you get a good bipod (I use a Versa Pod bipod), and suggest you get a solid 100 yard zero and chronograph your ammo, noting group size. Once you get a load with a standard deviation of 15 fps or less, and is shooting 1 minute or less, project your scope elevation adjustments out to 1000 yards. This can be done in maybe 3 or 4 range sessions. At this point you will be ready to learn in F class matches.
In the 223, the 1:9 can handle up to 72gr out to about 600 yards. The 1:8 or 1:7 can handle up to 80gr out to about 1000 yards, as long as you load a bit hot to keep the bullet supersonic at the target.
In the 30s, while a 1:12 is supposed to be better with 150gr and lighter bullets, my 308 bolt guns are tack drivers with 168s and 175s. The 1:11 is supposed to be a good compromise twist for 150gr to 168gr. The 1:10 is supposed to be perfect for 168s and 175s out to 1000.
In my 7mm Remington Magnum, I am limited by a 1:9.25, which limits me to 168s or lighter. My rifle would have greater heavy bullet flexibility with either a 1:9 or a 1:8.5.
I would suggest that you get a good bipod (I use a Versa Pod bipod), and suggest you get a solid 100 yard zero and chronograph your ammo, noting group size. Once you get a load with a standard deviation of 15 fps or less, and is shooting 1 minute or less, project your scope elevation adjustments out to 1000 yards. This can be done in maybe 3 or 4 range sessions. At this point you will be ready to learn in F class matches.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Then it's a happy circumstance that the M&P10 barrel is 1:10!
Thank you for the information. It may become useful to me in the future. Or at least out to 800 yards. If I can find a place flat enough here for that.
Thank you for the information. It may become useful to me in the future. Or at least out to 800 yards. If I can find a place flat enough here for that.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Why not a 200 yard zero? Or are you saying it's best to work on the load at 100 yards?
ChattanoogaPhil
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I use a 200yd zero on my Rem700 .308, but that's more about accommodating variable distances in the woods-- point and click. For precision shooting at paper using finger turret scope adjustments for dialing in known distances... zero?
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