My Dad and I have interest in LR target shooting and are inching into it. I’ve noticed that many LR competition shooters are using scopes with first focal plane. I’m not clear on exactly why. All input is welcome! A quality scope is quite an investment!
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Long range shooters/scopes
- Thread starter RichardF
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R.A. Rifleman
Member
I can't give a technical answer but to summarize, a first focal plane scope has the reticle on the same plane as the target. The advantage is that the subtensions of the reticle are the same at any magnification. On a second focal plane scope, the reticle changes size depending upon magnification and the reticle subtensions are only accurate at 1 particular magnification, typically the highest.
jrm53
Member
I used to shoot for group size until I got a botched catarac job and got a new cornea in my right eye now if I want to test a rifle some one else has to do the shooting. When I did shoot for group size I set the scope to shoot a couple of inches off dead center as if you don't the dot that you shoot at will get bigger and open up your groups. I use a Lyman lwbr 25 scope, 30 weaver, 2 36 power leupolds all with fine cross hairs or dots. Good luck with your shooting. Jeff
Farmer17
Member
I guess first you need to establish a budget before we can recommend a long range scope is it $200, $500, $1000, $2000? I've heard that for the money the high end Vortex scopes give some of the best performance per dollar spent and Nightforce is always a good pick if you got the $$$.
Farmer17
Member
Never been to Europe and want to spend a week.
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I shot on High School and College Rifle teams..... .22s indoor at 50ft...... where the X was about this "." big! "Distance" is relative........
Don't overlook shooting .22lr at 100yds ....... it's a fun way to spend an afternoon at the range. Add some 3 or 4 position along with off the bench.
Looking forward to some .17hmr at 100+ next summer.
You and you Dad .... have fun!!!
Don't overlook shooting .22lr at 100yds ....... it's a fun way to spend an afternoon at the range. Add some 3 or 4 position along with off the bench.
Looking forward to some .17hmr at 100+ next summer.
You and you Dad .... have fun!!!
I shot on High School and College Rifle teams..... .22s indoor at 50ft...... where the X was about this "." big! "Distance" is relative........
Don't overlook shooting .22lr at 100yds ....... it's a fun way to spend an afternoon at the range. Add some 3 or 4 position along with off the bench.
Looking forward to some .17hmr at 100+ next summer.
You and you Dad .... have fun!!!
Amen to shooting 22s at 100. I've got a 15-22 with Micro red dot and I rarely miss shooting off hand (with Mini-Mags).
A lot depends on what you consider Long Range. Are you looking at 300, 500, 1000 yards?
I shoot Prairie Dogs, and shots may be from 75 yards out to way past 500. With my age and my eyesight I have put a practical limit of around 500 yards on my shooting. I have used several scopes, and (for my purposes) I find Nikon Monarch and Leupold in the 6-20X magnification work well. If you want the very best , look into Nightforce. The scopes I use fall in the $500 to $800 range, the Nightforce scopes run double that.
The best scope I ever had for clarity and ruggedness was the 1 1/2" Unertle 20X target scope I had on top of my Anschutz 54 match rifle. The glass in that is ultra high quality, but it is not very adaptable for field shooting as it has very minimal depth of field (area in focus).
I shoot Prairie Dogs, and shots may be from 75 yards out to way past 500. With my age and my eyesight I have put a practical limit of around 500 yards on my shooting. I have used several scopes, and (for my purposes) I find Nikon Monarch and Leupold in the 6-20X magnification work well. If you want the very best , look into Nightforce. The scopes I use fall in the $500 to $800 range, the Nightforce scopes run double that.
The best scope I ever had for clarity and ruggedness was the 1 1/2" Unertle 20X target scope I had on top of my Anschutz 54 match rifle. The glass in that is ultra high quality, but it is not very adaptable for field shooting as it has very minimal depth of field (area in focus).
diggler1833
Member
From a target shooting perspective, First Focal Plane (FFP) scopes offer as some have already stated: the reticle subtensions offer accurate readings at any power, making the reticle shrink and grow as you move back and forth through the magnification range.
Second Focal Plane (SFP) reticles retain their original apparent size throughout the magnification range. They are a little easier to see if you have to dial down magnification to compensate for mirage etc...
I run FFP scopes on most of my hunting rifles. It is not necessary, but does make holding for wind calls a lot easier as I don't have to double check to ensure that my magnification is correct. My target rifles all have SFP as those optics are typically less expensive all other things being equal.
It just depends on what you want to do with the rifle. There could be pages on this subject by the way...you just have to determine what you want to do with the rifle and then you can get some better input.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
I own a stack of Leupolds and 2 Nightforce. The Vortex scopes are a great value for the money, but they are still a budget scope. You won't notice it until you have spent a day behind a Nightforce, Zeiss, or some of the really bigger dollar scopes (March scopes go up to 60x and $4000)! It isn't just about image quality to the edge of the glass. It is more about the strain on your eyes. If you look at a target or varmint at 1000 yards for a half hour, many of the upper mid priced scopes will serve you well (Nikon, Sightron, Burris, and lower grades of Leupold.) If you are sighting for a 2 or 3 man team you; can be in the glass for an hour and a half easily at a time, and eye strain starts to accumulate and a full day builds into a raging headache!
The bigger the objective lense, the more light from the target image is gathered. (It is a lot more complicated than I care to type!) But in Nightforce the difference in a 50mm vs. a 56mm objective lense is 20 to 25% greater, but the cost is only 5 to 10% more. Many courses have steel plates in the trees/shade or on purpose run into twilight. Plus cloudy days consume light like teenagers at a pizza buffet!
As my eyes have gotten older (62 now) I enjoy more magnification. A 5" plate at 1000 yards in a contrasting color is visible at 10x, but 20x or more is much easier on me! But one of the problems is steel plates that are 8" and under turn grey with lead splatter as more shots are fired, plus varmints are grey/brown to start with. You end up looking for shapes that blend in.
If you stay with the game, you will want the bigger lense and more powerful scope and of course the best glass. So do you spend $400-800 now and replace it for the next year, or do you spend $1700-2500 up front. Only you and your wallet can make that choice!
ADDED NOTE: I have a 20x, 2"objective, Varmint Unertl, They are from the 60's and 70's and are still hard to beat. Fantastic condition examples should cost you in the $800+ neighborhood. They mount totally different and finding gunsmiths to do the work is getting very difficult! But worth it!!!
If you are staying in the 400-700 yard range, stick with Vortex or their rivals, but if you are after targets out to 1500, you need scopes that cost a small fortune!
Ivan
The bigger the objective lense, the more light from the target image is gathered. (It is a lot more complicated than I care to type!) But in Nightforce the difference in a 50mm vs. a 56mm objective lense is 20 to 25% greater, but the cost is only 5 to 10% more. Many courses have steel plates in the trees/shade or on purpose run into twilight. Plus cloudy days consume light like teenagers at a pizza buffet!
As my eyes have gotten older (62 now) I enjoy more magnification. A 5" plate at 1000 yards in a contrasting color is visible at 10x, but 20x or more is much easier on me! But one of the problems is steel plates that are 8" and under turn grey with lead splatter as more shots are fired, plus varmints are grey/brown to start with. You end up looking for shapes that blend in.
If you stay with the game, you will want the bigger lense and more powerful scope and of course the best glass. So do you spend $400-800 now and replace it for the next year, or do you spend $1700-2500 up front. Only you and your wallet can make that choice!
ADDED NOTE: I have a 20x, 2"objective, Varmint Unertl, They are from the 60's and 70's and are still hard to beat. Fantastic condition examples should cost you in the $800+ neighborhood. They mount totally different and finding gunsmiths to do the work is getting very difficult! But worth it!!!
If you are staying in the 400-700 yard range, stick with Vortex or their rivals, but if you are after targets out to 1500, you need scopes that cost a small fortune!
Ivan
ky wonder
US Veteran
I have been shooting precision rifles for a long time, as already stated here about the reticle changing with the power on a ffp, if you get one that is set up in milrads instead of MOA it will take a lot of math out of the equation.
if your watching your shot through the scope, if the shot lands one mill off it a simple adjustment,of either the point of aim, or on my scopes 10 clicks of the turret.
the recticle marking on the lense is 1 mil at any power, where with a second focal plane if your not on full power with a MOA scope its not that simple
like already stated the sfp bdc mildot scopes are only accurate at max power anything else gets math involved
in my best ky windage terminology,
the ffp with a milirand recticle will get the beginning shooter on target sooner and will be much easier to pick up, not to mention the ammo you will save over building a dope chart for a sfp scope
you don't have to spend 2500 now you can get a functional ffp scope in the $250 range that will let you learn the process that will be fine out to 500-600 yds, there is a lot more than scope that goes into long range precision shooting, proper set up, leveling everthing and securing it properly to your rifle is vital, spend 20 bucks on a scope spirit level when you start reaching out toward 1000, a 3degree cant in a scope or rifle can make a big difference in a 1000 yd shot.
IMO I would save the initial expense of a top rated piece of glass and use that money on ammo until you are sure you get the bug
the best rifleman is one who understands his weapon and what affects it
I sold a bone stock 1997 savage fp110 tactical, 308 last week to a young LEO who was looking for a precision tactical rifle he could afford his department was paying for him to go to a advance rifle class but he had to buy his own rifle, the day he picked it up we went to the farm and shot the rifle, I shot a 5" 5 round group at 500 yds with that rifle with a busnell throphy 6x18x40 sfp could have tightend that up considerably with a ffp scope on it,
he fell in love with it on his first two shots at 100 yds both rounds in the same whole, he was going to put a high end leupold scope on it for class and he even texed me the next day after taking it to the range where he lived still loving the rifle
as I told him as an leo that might be called on to send a round thru friendlys, that situation more than justified the cost of the scope in that scenario I'd want the best I can get, punching holes in paper or clanging steel I 'm not that picky
if your watching your shot through the scope, if the shot lands one mill off it a simple adjustment,of either the point of aim, or on my scopes 10 clicks of the turret.
the recticle marking on the lense is 1 mil at any power, where with a second focal plane if your not on full power with a MOA scope its not that simple
like already stated the sfp bdc mildot scopes are only accurate at max power anything else gets math involved
in my best ky windage terminology,
the ffp with a milirand recticle will get the beginning shooter on target sooner and will be much easier to pick up, not to mention the ammo you will save over building a dope chart for a sfp scope
you don't have to spend 2500 now you can get a functional ffp scope in the $250 range that will let you learn the process that will be fine out to 500-600 yds, there is a lot more than scope that goes into long range precision shooting, proper set up, leveling everthing and securing it properly to your rifle is vital, spend 20 bucks on a scope spirit level when you start reaching out toward 1000, a 3degree cant in a scope or rifle can make a big difference in a 1000 yd shot.
IMO I would save the initial expense of a top rated piece of glass and use that money on ammo until you are sure you get the bug
the best rifleman is one who understands his weapon and what affects it
I sold a bone stock 1997 savage fp110 tactical, 308 last week to a young LEO who was looking for a precision tactical rifle he could afford his department was paying for him to go to a advance rifle class but he had to buy his own rifle, the day he picked it up we went to the farm and shot the rifle, I shot a 5" 5 round group at 500 yds with that rifle with a busnell throphy 6x18x40 sfp could have tightend that up considerably with a ffp scope on it,
he fell in love with it on his first two shots at 100 yds both rounds in the same whole, he was going to put a high end leupold scope on it for class and he even texed me the next day after taking it to the range where he lived still loving the rifle
as I told him as an leo that might be called on to send a round thru friendlys, that situation more than justified the cost of the scope in that scenario I'd want the best I can get, punching holes in paper or clanging steel I 'm not that picky
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Bill Bates
Member
Ivan got it spot on when it comes to optics, the longer you are looking through the glass the more the optical quality matters. That goes for rifle scopes, spotting scope, binoculars, telescopes and camera lenses. The ability for the optic to resolve fine detail; gather and let light through, and to focus all wave lengths to the same point really make a difference if you are spending hours looking through the optic.
One can buy pretty budget rifle that will shoot little tiny groups and that is great place to save money if you're on a budget. Optics aren't the place to get cheap. Always buy the very best glass you can afford. I find shooters change rifles more often then they change scopes. Buy the best scope you can.
One can buy pretty budget rifle that will shoot little tiny groups and that is great place to save money if you're on a budget. Optics aren't the place to get cheap. Always buy the very best glass you can afford. I find shooters change rifles more often then they change scopes. Buy the best scope you can.
If you are just starting, would pay heed to consider not investing in expensive, and getting mil/mil until you come to some realizations.
If not for hunting, would give more consideration to substantial/repeatable turret adjustment, then advantage of ffp vs sfp. Might want to consider a fixed power with repeatable/accurate adjustment. A brand new swfa 12x mil/mil is about $300. You do not need to worry about different poi at various power variations. The glass is not the best, but the repeatability and accuracy of elevation adjustments has been very good with the several owned.
After ya get some experience, you may have a better idea of the features that would benefit your intent.
If not for hunting, would give more consideration to substantial/repeatable turret adjustment, then advantage of ffp vs sfp. Might want to consider a fixed power with repeatable/accurate adjustment. A brand new swfa 12x mil/mil is about $300. You do not need to worry about different poi at various power variations. The glass is not the best, but the repeatability and accuracy of elevation adjustments has been very good with the several owned.
After ya get some experience, you may have a better idea of the features that would benefit your intent.
This article will give you a good explanation of 1st and 2nd focal plane - the explanation starts around the 7th paragraph. https://rifleshooter.com/2017/05/schmidt-bender-5-25x56-pm-ii-sfp-review/
I don't think you'll find a better long rang scope than a Schmidt & Bender and if I was younger I would be saving for the 5-45x56 PM II High Power Scope - hoping that by the time I saved up the money it would offer different reticles in SFP.
I don't think you'll find a better long rang scope than a Schmidt & Bender and if I was younger I would be saving for the 5-45x56 PM II High Power Scope - hoping that by the time I saved up the money it would offer different reticles in SFP.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Schmidt & Bender was the name I was thinking of but couldn't remember. Fantastic scopes at fantastic prices, but still a good value if you already have the money!
Ivan
Ivan
Farmer17
Member
I don't know much about the high dollar scopes but in the $200-$800 range it seems like Leupold is excellent at holding its resale value. You could buy one and if you decide you need to upgrade to a Night Force or S&B you could sell the Leo and not loose much money.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Every Leupold that has been made is still under warranty! It doesn't matter who bought it first! Of the 30 some I own, only on three was I the first owner! Used 6.5-20x 40mm Adjustable Objective Veri-X III, scopes in decent condition are running $450-$525 in Central Ohio. The last one of these I bought new was an EFR (extended focus, means down to about 25 feet) was almost $900. You will want an Adjustable Objective or Side Focus in any scope you would use for Long Range Shooting (keeps you from refocusing at extreme changes in distance!)
I had a 3.5-10x 32mm Veri-X II Fixed Objective Tactical that came on a retired LE sniper rifle. Leupold set the focus for 600 yards (I have never figured out why!) I sold it for $450 in 1998 or 1999, and bought a used 6.5-20x 40mm AO for $300! It didn't say tactic-cool anywhere on it. It used to be the average L.E. sniper shot was around 85 yards and 125 was a long shot!
My oldest son bought a retired LE Remington 700 pre-PSP. The Ohio Highway Patrol went from 2 rapid response teams to 1 and sold off 6 sniper rifles. The gun had no optics with it, so I put one of my 6.5-20x 40mm AO Leupolds on it for him. That set up with the correct ammo gets 4" at 800 yards. That won gun my son lots of cokes in Texas, they were surprised to learn: Boys from Ohio can shoot!
Ivan
cmort666
Member
I've got two 1,000 yard rifles.
Savage 110BVSS:
Savage 10FP
I use only 200gr. Sierra Matchking BTHPs and IMR or Hodgdon 4350 in in the .30-06.
I use only 175gr. Sierra Matchking BTHPS and Vihta Vuori N150 (M118 LR equivalent) in the .308.
I trickle and weigh every charge individually.
Either of them can easily hold the X at 600 yards in the hands of somebody who can read the wind well enough.
I no longer have a partner, the time or a place to shoot long range, or for the last eight years, the money.
Savage 110BVSS:
- .30-06
- 1 in 10" rifling
- Canjar single set trigger
- Savage laminated varmint stock with fore end rail for hand stop and sling swivel
- Medesha inclined one piece scope base with integral iron sight mount
- Bausch & Lomb Elite 6300 6x24 scope
- Redfield International rear sight
- Tiger globe front sight with interchangeable inserts.
- Harris bipod
Savage 10FP
- .308
- 1 in 10" rifling
- Sharp Shooter Supply match trigger
- Savage laminated varmint stock with fore end rail for hand stop and sling swivel
- Medesha inclined one piece scope base with integral iron sight mount
- Bausch & Lomb Elite 6300 6x24 scope
- Redfield International rear sight
- Redfield globe front sight with interchangeable inserts.
- Harris bipod
I use only 200gr. Sierra Matchking BTHPs and IMR or Hodgdon 4350 in in the .30-06.
I use only 175gr. Sierra Matchking BTHPS and Vihta Vuori N150 (M118 LR equivalent) in the .308.
I trickle and weigh every charge individually.
Either of them can easily hold the X at 600 yards in the hands of somebody who can read the wind well enough.
I no longer have a partner, the time or a place to shoot long range, or for the last eight years, the money.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
I’m out of the league here. I use bushnell scopes with the bullet drop compisation from 100/150yds out to 450/500yds you dope the scope. It’s a mechanical vertical turret. I have these scopes on most of my hunting rifles. They only offer the bdc option in the banner scope now. I have the older more expensive scopes with the bdc.
