Lyman vs lee vs Alliant...

Boogsawaste

Boogsawaste

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Got my Lyman 49th today and read everything up to the loads already, twice...

After looking over the loads for 110grn 38 special (I have a bunch of sierra 110 hollow points), I noticed that the load for unique is WAY over what I have from Lee and Alliant.

Alliant:
5.6 Max
5.9 Max +p
1.430" OAL
"JHP"

Lee:
4.6 start
5.8 max
1.455" OAL
XTP

Lyman 49:
5.8 start
6.5 max
7.1+p
1.430" OAL
Speer JHP

Is the Lyman 49 that much hotter than the others, or are the others that tame? I just want to make sure if I start at the Lyman's minimum of 5.8 unique and using a sierra bullet instead of the Speer that I'm not going to blow my hand up! Thanks guys.
:confused::confused::eek:
 
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Current Alliant data is 6.3 gr. Unique for +P. Speer 110 GDHP @ 1.445 LOA". What were you looking at?

That really isn't so far from Lyman, especially since all it takes to be listed as +P is to be loaded to a pressure higher than 17,000 PSI, which is the "Standard" MAP for .38 Spl. Since Alliant no longer shows pressure figures, who knows? Rarely in any loading manual is the "Maximum Load" equal to the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) specification. For .38 Special +P the MAP spec. is 20,000 PSI. What pressure level does Lyman show?

One mistake almost universally made by new reloaders is to assume that "Maximum Loads" are just that, and anything higher will actually be dangerous. Fortunately this is not true. This is not to say you can or should ignore maximum loads, far from it, but rather simply that you need not be fearful of a load that may exceed published data by a few tenths of a grain in one manual.

There is another assumption made, even by experienced reloaders. This is "If it is published in a loading manual then it is safe." Likewise this is untrue! There is one frequently cited manual that causes people to believe that there is a specific propellant which is "magic" and can give higher than normal velocities without high pressure. The maximum load (for .38 Spl.) was actually double the maximum charge weigh shown in the powder manufacturers manual! The maximum load was actually well above that listed by the manufacturer for .357 Magnum!!!

It is always imperative to double check data by referring to as many sources as possible, that's why everyone should own as many loading manuals as possible. You did this and should be commended for asking for an explanation for the variation.
 
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Lyman uses a "Universal Receiver" for its testing.

Most others use a K frame in their testing, to reach the higher
velocity loads safely.

If by chance you shoot a J frame, you do need to tread lightly
when getting near the top loads with the lighter frame.

Most revolvers will tell you when you are on the edge with ...
poor groups,
heavy muzzle blast
heavy recoil
and a load that is just not pleasant to shoot!!

A 38 Special is a great load but you have to take notice, that there is no.......
"MAGNUM" listed with this gun or ammo!!

Most shooters can handle a 38 and shoot it well with a little practice, one reason it keeps hanging on.
 
The Alliant data was older, before they switched to basically all GDHP. I wasn't sure how to take the GDHP data as they seem to be plated, but thicker than normal plating. So I didn't know how it compares to a standard JHP.

The Lyman shows 13,400 CUP for the starter load and 15,700 CUP max. Compared to some of the other listings for the same 110 on that page, they seemed average to below as far as pressure.

Interesting info about a k frame being used to test loads.

I really don't want to hot rod the 38 special. I have been staying at close to starting loads as I'm just making up plinkers. I also own 357's, and plan to load for them also. But first I would like to get more comfortable with the low pressure good old 38spl.

I'm going to be 100% honest. I actually made up 5 rounds of 5.8 unique under those 110's before I posted yesterday. I was very excited to try my new press set up I finally got (was using a lee loader before). So I took my brand new lyman and grabbed a load and ran it through the works. After my excitement faded I realized I did something I never should...used one manual. That's when I checked and decided to ask why the large spread in data.

So I'm left with 2 choices. Either pull the loads apart or shoot them. I could build up some lower charges of course and work up slowly to mine, but I think I'm being a bit ridiculous in worrying so much at a STARTER load from a very trusted manual. But I also learned not to throw caution into the wind. Which is why I'm here sounding like the beginner I am asking questions.

Thank you to both of you for the info you supplied me.
 
My experience has been with Lyman's 357 Magnum data and in that caliber I find it to be too hot, as in difficult to extract cases hot. As a result I now regard Lyman's data for the 357 Magnum as likely to be out of date and too warm for continuous use in any handgun that I've paid good money to purchase. However, in someone elses revolver I wouldn't be as concerned because those rocket loads are rather fun to shoot and I don't believe they are so strong there is any risk of blowing up a quality revolver such as a S&W.

I just looked up Sierra's load data for their 110 grain JHP using Unique and the data given is 5.8 grains to start and 7.0 grains as maximum. So, in this particular case it would seem that Lyman's data is in line with the manufacturers data. BTW, the Accuracy load listed was 6.6 grains of Unique at 1100 fps.
 
I understand MAP to mean maximum allowable pressure. The Accurate manual lists pressures and the MAXIMUM loads are within about 1% of SAAMI until the powder is too slow for caliber.

Having worked up loads for 10 mm and 44 mag myself with accurate # 9 I can attest that near max book loads are impressive. So much so I stopped at 2% under and called it good.
 
Jim,
You will find data will vary quite a bit from major manufacturer to major manufacturer. Example, from Hornady to Sierra to Speer. This will hold true for a bullet of the same weight and design. Bullet hardness and bearing surface most likely play a part in this.

Direct from the Sierra V edition 7th printing:
.38 Spl. 110 HP starts at 5.8 Unique and max is 7.0 Unique.

Now check a 110 XTP out of the Hornady 8th edition:
.38 Spl. 110 XTP HP starts at 5.2 Unique and max is 6.0 for standard and 6.3 for the +P.

Quite a difference from make to make. That is why I have the manufacturers book for every brand I load plus others. It allows verification with that specific brand bullet. The Lyman is great because it shows a pressure reading beside each load. The Lyman will also vary with the major maker manuals.

Some will say that it doesn't make a difference from brand to brand. I will tell you from experience that it does.

Enjoy.
 
Thanks everyone. Looks like some more manuals are in order. Going by sierras starting load (the bullet I have), I will try these out and see how they go.

I'll probably use them in my sp101 as even if these are hot, they're not near 357 pressures. And to back it up I'm still under hornady's +p load too. I was just a bit apprehensive because of being near/at the max for those other data sources I listed.
 
You will never find any two manuals to be identical. Diff test platforms, components & conditions, Even temps & elevation affect pressures. So I always look at 2-3 sources & avg the data. I use avg middle data & work that up to avg max, if that is where you want to go.
 
Boogsawaste said:
Got my Lyman 49th today and read everything up to the loads already, twice...
Click to expand...

If you missed pages 118 and 119, or don't understand them, go back and study them very carefully. They have information that every reloader should understand and, even though they don't say it in so many words, they explain the reason why it's useless to compare data from various manuals.

I don't know of any data source off hand that uses normal firearms to develop their loads. Usually if they list one it's because they used it to check the velocity of their loads that were developed on test equipment. If you have any manuals that claim they developed the load with a regular firearm, do yourself a favor and ignore their data.
 
I read that part more than a couple times. You know the whole "can cause death to you and others" got my attention! Of course we all know that's a possibility and the nature of firearms, it's always scarier when you're learning something like this and there in black and white.

So, with what everyone has said, even though the Lyman 49th and Sierra manuals have their starting loads at MAX loads for other manuals, I shouldn't be having a grenade in my hands with 5.8 of unique under a sierra 110 jhp with a cci 500. Is this safe to assume? Of course, NOBODY here is liable for their opinions. I don't operate that way.

Again, sorry to sound like such a newbie, but that's exactly what I am.
 
If you have the exact bullet that was tested by a good company like Sierra, why not simplify and use the data the Sierra has?

They made it and tested it.;)

As others stated, all the loads are gonna vary but they are still close to each other. They will all work and nothing is out of line. You will not notice much difference.
 
Boogsawaste said:
I read that part more than a couple times. You know the whole "can cause death to you and others" got my attention! Of course we all know that's a possibility and the nature of firearms, it's always scarier when you're learning something like this and there in black and white.

So, with what everyone has said, even though the Lyman 49th and Sierra manuals have their starting loads at MAX loads for other manuals, I shouldn't be having a grenade in my hands with 5.8 of unique under a sierra 110 jhp with a cci 500. Is this safe to assume? Of course, NOBODY here is liable for their opinions. I don't operate that way.

Again, sorry to sound like such a newbie, but that's exactly what I am.
Click to expand...
It's always your risk & what you're comfy with. You do not likely have the exact test platform any manual as, there will always be variation. Hence the admonition to start low & work up.
 
I wasn't talking about the "death" thing as much as the 'nothing is set in stone when it comes to reloading' thing. There are many variables in just about every aspect of reloading and that means the data you find in one manual will never match another. Unless they got their data from the same source, which does happen.

Even though that warning is pretty much in every manual, you will find plenty of people that ignore it and in many different ways. When in doubt, always do what the manuals tell you.

You can start with the 5.8 gr. load, and the "start low and work your way up" comments above are a golden rule in reloading, but, like the Lyman manual tells you, that doesn't mean it's safe to go up just because a manual has data that does. Under the conditions you are loading in, the various lots of components that you are using, and the equipment that you are using, the 5.8 grain load might even be too high. Don't worry, it won't blow up in your hand. But, if it feels noticeably hotter than factory ammo you have shot in that firearm, simply drop the load down until it feels more natural.
 
Sorry, I meant that the death warning got my attention so I made sure I read that and understood those pages because it got my attention.

I'm going to try out my batch this weekend and see how they go. Thanks again everyone for your information.
 
Direct from the Sierra V edition 7th printing:
.38 Spl. 110 HP starts at 5.8 Unique and max is 7.0 Unique.

At some point you have got to believe the written data. More so if from the actual bullet manufacturer. I don't how different equipment could make the 5.8 start load excessive. A different component such as a different primer could raise pressures a hair but only an issue if nearing upper level to max data. I don't think Sierra would subject themselves to liability by listing a start load that is beyond max.

The last thing the OP wants is a reduced load squib and blocked bore. Stick with the published data start load.
 
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Yes, I definitely do NOT want a squib. I'm fine going with the sierra and lyman info. It's a starter load after all... I'll report back next weekend with how they do. Hopefully I won't have too many more idiotic questions.
 
Questions aren't idiotic, it shows you don't know or understand something but are willing to learn. It's better than not asking and not finding out the facts, such as you have nothing to worry about "squibs" from anything mentioned in any thread above.

Even though that warning is pretty much in every manual, you will find plenty of people that ignore it and in many different ways. When in doubt, always do what the manuals tell you.
Click to expand...
Always keep this in mind.
 
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