m1 3rd, smooth cylinder?

[ocs]

Gentlemen,

first of all, nice place here; I'm glad a friend of mine gave me the link.

I've bumped into a Model 1 3rd issue with a smooth cylinder, like this:

Has ever S&W made such a rare beast, or would it, as I suspect, mean that some of the previous owners blasted the original cylinder somehow and replaced it by another one?

Which leads to an auxiliary question: are normally 1st/2nd/3rd issue cylinders interchangeable?

Thanks!

 

[mmaher94087]

I don't believe that cylinder is S&W as the cylinder stop notches are wrong. Check to see if the assembly numbers match. A quick check of the face of the cylinder and the breach-end of the barrel will tell. The 1-1- 6th type cylinder and all 1-2 and 1-3 cylinders will interchange.

 

[BMur]

I agree with Mike,
This can’t be a Smith & Wesson cylinder. It’s been machined to fit by likely a gunsmith. First of all the locking slots are too long for S&W. Smiths are box like and lack the bolt guide that was an improvement introduced to the gun market in about 1875 but not generally used until about 1878. See photos. You’ll notice the “ box” shaped cylinder lock and no guide next to the lock? Then look at your cylinder? See how the bolt locks are elongated more rectangular in shape?. All of the small spur trigger revolvers of that era in 22 cal were 7 shot. That includes a very long list of early trade name revolvers like tramps terror and Captain Jack etc. very similar tip ups were made by Marlin also, etc. A lot of those cylinders could be made to fit the Smith. If you want to go deeper? Take the cylinder off and provide us with a photo front and back and with the pile of cylinders that I have I’ll bet I can match it and tell you what gun it came from?

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. I agree that the cylinder appears to be from some other make of gun. The Model 1 had simple slots for the cylinder stop, not the "T" design you show. The factory originally stamped matching characters on the frame, barrel, and cylinder after hand fitting and before finishing. That way the matching parts could be assembled.

These stampings could be letters, numbers, or a combination. They were stamped on the butt-frame under the stocks on the right side, the rear of the barrel assembly found to the rear of the latch, and on the cylinder face.near the center pin. My guess is that you will find those numbers on the frame and barrel, but not the cylinder. Let us know what you find.

 

[ocs]

Thanks all for the info!

So far, I saw just photos, not the real thing. Been told there's no stamping on the cylinder, but it's anyone's guess whether there's really not, or the current owner missed it.

Anyway. He relented a bit with the price when I insisted that the gun is not quite in its original state , and eventually I've decided to buy it anyway. Soon as I have it here — should be in a week or two — I'll check myself, make and post more photos.

Thanks again all of you! This is a great forum indeed.

 

[first-model]

To the question about cylinder interchangeability:

Up to the last variant, the 1st Issue Model 1's had a very different cylinder that didn't have the ratchet gear on the back. I'd have to go back through my notes, but I think the method of engaging the cylinder changed at least twice on the 1st Issue guns, so even within the 1st Issue there were likely changes that would prevent cylinders from being swapped (not that you'd ever want to ...).

2nd and 3rd Issue guns used a similar ratchet gear on the back for engaging the hand, so they might be, in theory, interchangeable. That said, I've never actually tried to put a 1-2 cylinder in a 1-3 gun (or vice-versa), so there may have been subtle engineering changes that I'm not aware of. And as others have pointed out this would be instantly recognizable as a parts gun and not an original configuration, so even if it could be done it's not advisable.

I guess it's possible that one or two smooth cylinders made it into 1-3 frames out of the factory, and at a minimum the assembly numbers should match. But that said, I'd be very skeptical of a "mongrel" Model 1, and it would have to be in that narrow range of transition serial numbers to be even given consideration.

Model 1's sometimes suffered cracked cylinders from enthusiastic shooters that loaded them with smokeless powder rounds. Some Model 1's may be able to withstand this, but many can't, and it's best to just not shoot them.

Mike

 

[ocs]

Well, well, welll.

I've got the gun today. It's a reasonably nice 1-3, no. 103742.

The cylinder is a bad joke. First of all, thing is 6-shot! Not surprisingly, it does not lock quite reliably, until rotated by hand.

For the moment, I could do just a couple of phone-quality photos; if need be, I shall do better ones with my camera later:

revolver
cylinder ratchet
cylinder face
cylinder side

Indeed I was not able to find any stamping on the cylinder. Will check again with a magnifying glass, but I doubt I'll find any. Length of the thing looks like 17 mm, diameter 24.4 mm far as I can measure with what I got here.

If you can recognise the cylinder, let me please know.

I don't think I'll shoot the thing

Thanks a lot,
OC

 

[mmaher94087]

Shooting it is definitely out of the question. The S&W part of the revolver looks respectable and one can occasionally find fluted cylinders on eBay, Gun Parts Corporation and Gun Broker. Also, place a Wanted ad here; there might be one on this Forum.

 

[BMur]

Hood winked again?

You thought you’d hood wink me again? No way Philadelphia Derringer? These guys are foolin us from every angle 130 years later!
I posted a 1 1/2 Broadsheet on an earlier thread? Turned out to be a BS scam from Philadelphia Derringer manufacturing look-a-likes! With this additional information you provided I confirmed that this cylinder “ being a 6 shot” and having the double racket?

The “ only manufactured 6 shot “ cylinder in 22cal tip up of that era was on the Smith and Wesson “ COPY” made by Philadelphia Derringer!
Please provide us with a photo of the barrel address and serial number to confirm the rest of the gun is not fooling us as well?
I’m not liking Philadelphia Derringer much!

 

[Patbar]

Hey BMur,
I am a bit surprised by your last post. First, the company name is Deringer with one "R" and it was created by Henry Deringer relatives.
And why don't you like what they made ? I have a little .22 Deringer revolver which has a beautiful engraving and I like it very much. And the cylinder is seven shots.
Sure, they copied S&W products, but who did not copy the other at the time ?

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar,
Don’t miss- understand my post. Philadelphia Derringers are rare collectibles but their methods of advertising their products were shady at best and the products were most definitely copies of Smith & Wesson’s.
Taken at face value the Philadelphia Deringer is somewhat rare and where they found that 6 shot cylinder for the Smith posted in this thread is beyond me. Since according to Flaydermans only 400 were produced. My point simply put is that cylinder came off a Philadelphia deringer.