M1 Garand

[andy52]

This question is only for people that load for older M1s.
The honor guard for the Amvets post I'm a member of is having extreme difficultly with the latest blank rounds they received. I service an maintain all the rifle and this is the problem. The ammo seems to be incorrectly sized for the chambers of the older rifles. Sometimes the ammo won't go into full battery and it gets light strikes and doesn't fire, included in this the last live round sticks in the chamber.
This ammo is supplied free from lake city. My thoughts are to try and run the ammo through a small base 30-06 die with no de-primer pin and see if they will cycle. I'm at a loss here and if this works I might be getting in contact with lake city.

 

[Liftrat]

I've reloaded for M1 Garands for many years, though I've never loaded nor shot blanks in them. That said, a couple of thoughts come to mind;
1. Are the chambers squeeky clean and free of pitting?
2. Do you have any of the previous blanks still available, and do they still chamber and function well?
3. Do you have, or have access to, a cartridge gauge? That might be quicker than trying to resize your cases.
4. Are your recoil springs in good shape?
Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Good luck.

Conrad

 

[Enigma]

I would contact the issuing agency to see if they are having a rash of complaints about the ammo. In my personal experience with AMVET or similar M1 Garands is that they are typically worn out and poorly maintained - as in they have received zero maintenance for many years. Without a hands-on examination of the rifles, it is impossible to troubleshoot them. You could try running a few rounds into a stripped small base sizing die, but I would start with a small quantity then test fire them.

I expect that your problem is more likely gun-related, than ammo-related.

 

[growr]

Several questions for you....Is the ammo really Lake City which has the red wax looking tip or then current run from Brazil that have the star crimp which are VERY anemic?

If the ammo is the star crimp casing did the post change the blank firing adapters for the new ammo?

If not, there lies some of your problem, then make sure you get an actual .30 cal M1 Garand chamber brush and clean the chambers. GI Bore Cleaner is great if you have any, otherwise good old Hoppe's #9 will do a bang up job for you

Both styles of blank ammo are very dirty and need to have the chambers cleaned much more often than firing M2 ball ammo. The star crimped ammo seems much dirtier to me...

Lastly, will a round of real M2 Ball chamber properly? If so, then your idea of re-sizing the blank casings has merit.

Like you, I am also the armorer for the American Legion Post 4 here in Billings.

Feel free to PM me and am happy to lend a hand on what I have learned.

Randy

PS. See if one of the cartridges that won't chamber in the M1 will chamber in a 1903.....most posts still have some of them for ceremonial flag presentations.

If the post doesn't have one, maybe you or another post member will have a commercial 30-06 rifle to check it out.

Any possibility that you have a case gauge for 30-06 or access to one? They are invaluable for this sort of problem.

 

[andy52]

I'll try and address as many of the questions and comments in a single post.

The previous batch of blanks had no issues.
Other posts are reporting the same issues.
Yes the guns are well cleaned and maintained I'm the one who does that.
I've replace all the older style blank adapters with newer "POPS"
style.
Now here's the rub, I do have a case gauge and the ammo seems to be in spec. I though maybe on the not going into battery it might be user error so I asked if they might be easing the bolt forward rather then letting travel on it's own.
The captain of the team said he loads all the rifles and lets the bolt full travel.
I don't have any appropriate live ball ammo to test them with but I could get some.
This is getting frustrating and I'm at a loss trying to figure this out that's the reason I tought to try the small base die..oh and yes it's lake city ammo.

 

[growr]

Our guys were constantly "checking" the chamber to ensure that there was a round and then easing the op rod forward ....not always in battery, so I understand your problem on that.

I had to tell the guys on a service yesterday that if they are going to chamber check the rifle, to be sure to let the op rod spring snap it back into battery or bop the op rod handle briskly to make sure that it IS in battery.

Randy

PS. In our latest batch of ammo we are finding many rounds badly bent or dented from the factory rendering them useless. This MIGHT be a culprit for you as well.

 

[andy52]

Randy I'm going back to the post today and pick up a 100 rounds of the new blanks, I've already ordered a small base die and I'll give that a try.
The post commander said that lake city was contacted about the issue but were non-responsive.
I'm not personally on the honor guard, just the armorer. I was there yesterday to return one of the M1s that was misbehaving.
When they got back the honor guard was pretty frustrated. They still had the two rounds that didn't fire due to light strikes so I loaded a clip with those two rounds at the top and went behind the building to test them. Both fired fine but the live round left in the chamber still stuck and I had to do the mortar maneuver to get it out.

 

[jake1945]

Blank ammo is notorious for fouling everything in a garand. Almost like using black powder.

 

[andy52]

Blank ammo is notorious for fouling everything in a garand. Almost like using black powder.

This is absolutely true. When I first started servicing these rifles for the honor guard they were in horrible shape and most were non-functioning.
I got them calling me when 100 rounds have been fired per-gun and even then the cleaning patches come out as black as coal.

 

[mikld]

Any time there is a fit problem, measure. Measure an offending round and find out why it isn't chambering. Check body diameter in a few places and even check the neck diameter (I had a few fired blank cases given me that had a hefty crimp on the neck which could possibly alter the shape of the neck impeding chambering, I didn't reload them, I tossed them).Then you can decide the proper fix. My first thought was using a standard F/L sizing die w/o decapping stem. I have never needed a "small base" sizing die for my Garand...

 

[andy52]

Any time there is a fit problem, measure. Measure an offending round and find out why it isn't chambering. Check body diameter in a few places and even check the neck diameter (I had a few fired blank cases given me that had a hefty crimp on the neck which could possibly alter the shape of the neck impeding chambering, I didn't reload them, I tossed them).Then you can decide the proper fix. My first thought was using a standard F/L sizing die w/o decapping stem. I have never needed a "small base" sizing die for my Garand...

I sort of tried what your saying by sizing some standard fired 30-06 brass, after being sized with a regular die they would not chamber in one of the M1s I had in the shop.
I pick up 3 more rifles today and will be working with them next week.
I had a de-milled M14 a few years ago that wouldn't chamber any load made with standard dies, when I switched to small base they worked fine.

 

[lrrifleman]

Hi Andy!

This will be a little round-a-bout, but please bear with me.

Back in the early '90s when I transitioned from an '03A3 to an M1MKII, I had a problem where my Garand would eject the en bloc clip and round #8 after firing round #7. My gunsmith (who had been weened on the Garand) and I spent a number of summer Sunday afternoons trying to determine what was wrong, with little success. Then I happened to be shooting a Regional Match at Quantico when I struck up a conversation with on older Warrant Officer assigned to the Weapons Training Battalion and he educated me on trouble shooting problems with the Garand, telling me that the most likely culprit for a Garand malfunction was a worn "nub" on the bullet guide. I was then walked over to the armorer's van, had my guide replaced, and shown by an armorer how to enlarge a worn "nub".

The easiest way to check the timing without a timing gauge (which indicates a worn bullet guide) is to insert a fully loaded en bloc clip (you can get away with either blanks or dummy rounds) into the magazine well. If the bolt/op rod release to go into battery before the full clip is seated, the bullet guide is worn out of spec.

Hope this helps!

 

[andy52]

Hi Andy!

This will be a little round-a-bout, but please bear with me.

Back in the early '90s when I transitioned from an '03A3 to an M1MKII, I had a problem where my Garand would eject the en bloc clip and round #8 after firing round #7. My gunsmith (who had been weened on the Garand) and I spent a number of summer Sunday afternoons trying to determine what was wrong, with little success. Then I happened to be shooting a Regional Match at Quantico when I struck up a conversation with on older Warrant Officer assigned to the Weapons Training Battalion and he educated me on trouble shooting problems with the Garand, telling me that the most likely culprit for a Garand malfunction was a worn "nub" on the bullet guide. I was then walked over to the armorer's van, had my guide replaced, and shown by an armorer how to enlarge a worn "nub".

The easiest way to check the timing without a timing gauge (which indicates a worn bullet guide) is to insert a fully loaded en bloc clip (you can get away with either blanks or dummy rounds) into the magazine well. If the bolt/op rod release to go into battery before the full clip is seated, the bullet guide is worn out of spec.

Hope this helps!

Thank you I will try that and try not to get M1 thumb in the process...

 

[lrrifleman]

Andy, the best method that I used to avoid M1 thumb for the almost the years that I shot the M1 in NRA matches, was to ride my thumb on the top cartridges using the pinky side of my hand to "trip" the op rod, then brought my hand up like you would when executing a "smart salute". This method saved me from the dreaded" M1 thumb" for ten years with my Garand and six with my M1A!

 

[growr]

Andy,
Have you learned anything from the rounds you have and the rifles?

Please let us know your findings where you learn the REAL problem....

Randy

 

[andy52]

Andy,
Have you learned anything from the rounds you have and the rifles?

Please let us know your findings where you learn the REAL problem....

Randy

Randy as of now I'm still leaning towards a ammo issue. I have three of the M1s in the shop right now for service and cleaning and will check all the specs but I doubt there will be any problems.
When I picked up these rifles I also got a 100 rounds of the lake city blanks. The small base die should be in the mail today so that's my next task plus I'll focus on super cleaning the chambers.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

Since our post honor guard is extremely busy with funerals, the rifles are subjected to harsh use and extremely dirty rifles. The honor guard, captain, does have a cleaning sessions but not the regiment cleaning with time constraints. We have had the same problems with miss fires but I can attest to the biggest culprit is dirty chambers, bores and bolts. So far, with proper cleaning, we have not had any issues. We use the same ammo from Lake city and have not had a problem. Try and give the rifles a good cleaning to start off and if that does not work, you may have to isolate the problems as the other members have suggested.

Nick

 

[andy52]

Since our post honor guard is extremely busy with funerals, the rifles are subjected to harsh use and extremely dirty rifles. The honor guard, captain, does have a cleaning sessions but not the regiment cleaning with time constraints. We have had the same problems with miss fires but I can attest to the biggest culprit is dirty chambers, bores and bolts. So far, with proper cleaning, we have not had any issues. We use the same ammo from Lake city and have not had a problem. Try and give the rifles a good cleaning to start off and if that does not work, you may have to isolate the problems as the other members have suggested.

Nick

I've gotten the honor guard to call me when they have fired 100 rounds and no more before cleaning. I normally pick up the rifles on Friday and return them the following Friday 3 at a time.
So I have plenty of time to do a complete take down and cleaning. However I haven't really done a in-depth scrubbing of the chambers just a normal brushing and swapping. I'm using a "Dewey" ratcheting brush on the chambers. I don't have a bore scope so I really can't see the chambers that well, I might buy a dental mirror to have a better look inside.

 

[glowe]

Andy, forgive me if you are experienced with this Honor Guard Unit and their guns, but I have a couple of dumb questions to ask?

First, I have to ask about the configuration of the rifles? Many Honor Guard Rifles are incapable of shooting standard ammunition, since they use blank only Ceremonial, Caliber .30, M1s. The rifles are permanently altered to function as a repeater and will not automatically eject the brass, so operator has to reload manually.

Second, what caliber are the Guard rifles? Some Guard units are using 308 M1s, so 30-06 will not chamber.

 

[andy52]

Andy, forgive me if you are experienced with this Honor Guard Unit and their guns, but I have a couple of dumb questions to ask?

First, I have to ask about the configuration of the rifles? Many Honor Guard Rifles are incapable of shooting standard ammunition, since they use blank only Ceremonial, Caliber .30, M1s. The rifles are permanently altered to function as a repeater and will not automatically eject the brass, so operator has to reload manually.

Second, what caliber are the Guard rifles? Some Guard units are using 308 M1s, so 30-06 will not chamber.

No need to apologize. The rifles are all 30-06 M1 Garand's ranging from 1942 to 1956. The rifles are all capable of firing live ammo if the blank adapters were remove.
I keep a pretty extensive supply of parts in my shop for these rifles, including one spare rebuilt op-rod for the rifles with worn lugs. I donate all the time and parts to the honor guard at no cost.
A few weeks back the post Commander was going to list my name on the board as post Armorer I asked him to please not to do that. I told him I didn't want everyone coming to me asking to have their firearms worked on. I am a trained gunsmith but I only work on guns anymore for friends and family, plus the post.