M1917 and Holster Questions

[rozzi]

Thought I'd share a S&W M1917 and holster my friend got in trade for doing some body work on a classic truck a guy had.

The serial number is 62-9XX. We took the grips off and they have the serial number written on them. The cylinder also has the same serial number. It is in pretty good shape with tight lockup. It has all of the US markings on it, including the flaming bomb mark and US Property mark. I was wondering if anyone knew what the mark next tot he trigger was in the photo below?

For me, the neatest part about the group is the holster. I couldn't get a good photo of it, but on the back is inscribed "Sgt. F. N. Bell, 339th F.A., Bat. D".

I have always enjoyed a good research project, so I jumped at the chance to try and track down some info on this Sgt. Through my searches, I found a Sgt. Franklin N. Bell who was listed on the 339th Field Artillery roster. I was also able to come up with a link to a closed E-Bay auction of a postcard sent by him to his family from Bodeaux, France in 1918. Lastly, I got a photo of his tombstone. I'm still trying to learn more about the man and will hopefully be able to get his complete service record from the archives soon.

Anyway, my friend wanted to know what the best way would be to preserve the leather holster. It is in good shape already, with no real dry spots we can feel, but is cracking a bit. Before he applied any leather treatment products, I wanted to see what you all would recommend. He was planning on stuffing the holster with tissue paper to preserve its shape. The gun will not be stored in the holster. Any tips or recommendations would be appreciated.

Do left handed holsters carry any additional value? Lastly, do you think it would be worth the cost to get a factory letter for this pistol?

Thanks!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Well, you could saddle soap and neatsfoot oil it. But the oil will darken the color. Still, that will keep it from dry rotting. I don't know about the left hand holsters being more valuable. If they are, then it seems to me that it wouldn't be a big premium. Since you've already dug into Sgt. Bell's past, a factory letter seems appropriate.

 

[DWalt]

Do I think it's worth a letter? Probably not, as it won't tell you a lot, but it's your money. But others may differ. It's good you have found some historical information already.

If you want a very good replica holster to better preserve the authentic one you have, check the International Military Antiques (IMA) website. I know that recently they were still selling excellent quality replica military holsters for the M1917 very reasonably. They have both RH and LH versions. I think the LH was standard army issue, but worn on the right side, butt forward. I once had a 1930s picture of a group of army officers carrying M1917s, and that's how they were shown.

By appearances, the grip panels do not seem to be original military. Wood grain is too prominent. SN could have been added later. I do not know if M1917 grips ever even had SNs penciled on them originally, but someone here will know. All I can say is the wood grips on mine do not have any numbers on them that I can see. There are replica military grips around, but originals are a little hard to come by.

 

[s&wchad]

The eagle head over S9 is an army inspectors mark, they were stationed at the factory and approved components and the finished gun. You should find similar marks on the barrel flat and the back of the cylinder and in the yoke cut. The flaming bomb is an acceptance stamp too. That's a standard WWI holster, it's not intended for a lefty.
Ordinance stamps are listed here: U.S. Inspectors Markings

a little Pecards leather dressing is probably the best thing you can do for the leather.

 

[Texas Star]

The grips are nice and look to be later replacements.

The holsters are not for left-handed troops. They are for reverse draw with the right hand, while allowing access to the left hand. Cavalry used them to let the soldier use a sword in one hand and still be able to draw the .45 with the other. The practice dates to the US Civil War. I think all of the WW I holsters were like that. Some "right-handed" holsters were made for WW II.

I'd use shoe dye to color the holster Cordovan and use a cream shoe polish on it, several coats. But purist collectors might disagree. Bianchi used to sell a leather maintenance kit, may still.

BTW, I think you misspelled the name of the French town, which is Bordeaux. It is a major center for the wine trade.

 

[galena]

Nothing to add, except nice post and interesting project. Thanks for sharing.

 

[handejector]

The mark is an eagle head, and belonged to a particular inspector sent by Springfield Armory.

Use Blackrock leather treatment, and NOTHING else. Pic attached. Get some- it is the best ever made, and works magic. Use NOTHING else.

The holster is not left handed. They were all like that in WW I. They were worn on the right, butt forward. The saber was drawn with the right hand, the gun with the left. If desired, the gun could still be drawn with the right hand.

The grips are right as rain. They are not repops.

 

[JSR III]

Very nice package with interesting history. You have already located some information which is half the fun. Normally a letter is an exceptional investment except with military guns you may not get much information other than shipping destination. The letter won't tell you that the gun was shipped to Sgt. York as can sometimes be the case with civilian shipments.

I use the same product for my holsters that I use for my guns and that is Renaissance Wax. It is recommended by several museums and their curators and can be used on metal, leather, furniture, paintings, marble, ivory etc.

I recently used some on a holster that came with my early Bekeart shipped .22/32 revolver. The holster is soft and has a beautiful luster. After application I rubbed it with a clean used T shirt followed by a buffing with a black shoe brush (same color as the holster). I think that it came out great.

PS: The green crud that builds up on the rivets can be removed with an old toothbrush, toothpick and sometimes the insides with a Q tip. I also wax these areas well afterward and the green crud stays away.

 

[rozzi]

I want to thank you all for the responses so far. I really learned a lot and that is one of the reasons I love this forum. I'm always learning from you all.

I never thought about it being a reverse draw holster! That is great info to know, along with the inspector mark.

JSR III and DWalt - you both pretty much nailed what I was thinking about getting the factory letter. Since this was a military weapon, I figured it would just tell me what depot or general location it went. Since I have never ordered a factory letter, I thought I would ask just to make sure.

Texas Star - You are correct on the town. I figured that was it after I re-read my post, but the auction had it spelled that way so I copied it.

Thanks for the tips on the leather care. I think my friend's train of thought was to do as little as possible to the leather. He doesn't mind the "patina", but wanted to try and keep it from deteriorating and do his best to preserve it for many years to come.

I know nothing about the proper grips for these. When we took the grips off, the serial number was only written on one of them. It is pretty faint, but I can make it out in the right light.

Here is a photo of the other side for those who are interested.

 

[handejector]

Thanks for the tips on the leather care. I think my friend's train of thought was to do as little as possible to the leather. He doesn't mind the "patina", but wanted to try and keep it from deteriorating and do his best to preserve it for many years to come.

He has a good idea about stuffing it with tissue.
The holster is further gone than you think, and does need some care.
The Blackrock product shown above is what dealers of really valuable vintage leather use. Their rigs go for $1000's. It will sriously improve that holster. Easy to use, just follow their directions.

 

[KEN L]

I'm with Lee on this one. Black Rock is the best thing going for leather. It treats, preserves and brings dull looking leather back to life. Don't store the gun in the holster. It appears that is why the metal is in the condition it is in. Also, why the grips look newer than the gun. My 1917 also has the serial number in pencil on the inside of the right hand grip, so your friend's is right. Your research will only add to the overall value of the rig. A factory letter will tell you where it went when it left the factory and may tie in with information where it was issued to the Sgt. I just love a good mystery!

 

[peyton]

Don't leave us in suspense, get that warhorse to the range and then give us an range report!!

 

[fat tom]

Forum member "haggis" has the shipping records for the 1917. I'm sure he can tell you when your gun was sent to the army if you contact him. All he needs is the serial number.
f.t.

p.s. I also use Black Rock Leather 'N Rich and NOTHING else.

 

[turnerriver]

One more vote for Blackrock. Lee is not the Big Gorilla without reason- he's right as usual. Back that up with fat tom's recommendation & you can take the Blackrock advice to the bank.
Regards,
turnerriver

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I tried to find it in the local area and no one has heard of it. Apparently, we don't have a leather store or saddle/tack store any longer. So, I ordered it via Internet. Had to look around to find a store that shipping wasn't exorbitant -- US Wings was the most reasonable.

 

[The Wizard]

Here is how the revolver was worn.

 

[JSR III]

Blackrock can be found on fleabay for around $8 or $9 shipped for a small can.

After doing a little research, the main difference between Blackrock and Renaissance is what the waxes are made from. The Blackrock is made from carnuba wax which is extracted from a plant in Brazil IIRC.

Renaissance is a micro-crystalline wax that is petroleum based.

The only negative listed about the Blackrock was that some carnuba waxes produce acid. It is also not recommended for suede or untreated leather.

On the positive side, it looks like Blackrock is made in IL as opposed to the Renaissance that is made in England.

If you do a search on fleabay, you can refine the search to give you lowest price with shipping. Many sellers on fleabay try to trick you by offering the product at a lower price but jack the shipping way up. Reason being, selling fees are based on the product sales price and not the shipping.

There are also products listed that can be used on badly worn leather to stabilize it prior to applying any top coat. That may be something to look at before you put anything on the holster.

 

[rozzi]

Thanks again for all of the replies. I'll shoot Haggis a PM to see what info he can pass on. Wizard, thanks for that photo. It is great to see how it was worn. Looks like Blackrock is the route we need to go. I did a few searches and settled on buying it off ebay for $9.85 shipped. I have a few other holsters that could use some love, so I am pretty excited to try this product.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The local seatcover shop had never heard of Blackrock, but highly recommended Doc Bailey's products.

 

[The Wizard]

One more picture of the whole kit and kaboodle(sp?)