Marines use of Winchester 97s in the Pacific?

[Naphtali]

The only firearm I have owned that was about as complicated as my Model 97 was a Sauer-Colt Model 3000 Deluxe drilling 12/12/30-06. I got rid of the drilling after my first and only attempt at serious maintenance. The darn thing was a Rube Goldberg mass of tiny parts.

I have always believed that winter war around and in Stalingrad, and Marines' invasions of Japanese held islands during World War II, are (for infantry weapons) the two most challenging sets of conditions in the history of warfare with repeating firearms. While I am aware of Marines' frontline use of Model 97 "trench guns", I've wondered whether they were reliable in continual use during an Island campaign — that is, after days, perhaps weeks, of poor maintenance did those Marines who had been issued 97 trench guns do their utmost to get an M1 Garand or sub-machinegun? Did 97 trench guns remain regular limited issue to frontline "island hopping" Marines infantry throughout the war? Or were they relegated to use guarding supply depots and POWs?

 

[rockquarry]

The only firearm I have owned that was about as complicated as my Model 97 was a Sauer-Colt Model 3000 Deluxe drilling 12/12/30-06. I got rid of the drilling after my first and only attempt at serious maintenance. The darn thing was a Rube Goldberg mass of tiny parts.

I have always believed that winter war around and in Stalingrad, and Marines' invasions of Japanese held islands during World War II, are (for infantry weapons) the two most challenging sets of conditions in the history of warfare with repeating firearms. While I am aware of Marines' frontline use of Model 97 "trench guns", I've wondered whether they were reliable in continual use during an Island campaign — that is, after days, perhaps weeks, of poor maintenance did those Marines who had been issued 97 trench guns do their utmost to get an M1 Garand or sub-machinegun? Did 97 trench guns remain regular limited issue to frontline "island hopping" Marines infantry throughout the war? Or were they relegated to use guarding supply depots and POWs?

Consider looking for a copy of the Bruce Canfield book, "U.S. Infantry Weapons of WW II". Good coverage of the '97 (and other shotguns used by the U.S. in WW II). Excellent book like all of those by Canfield.

 

[Tom Kent]

The 5th Platoon of 3rd force recon who operated in the Khe Sanh area had a model 97 shotgun that they used on recon missions. They even used the flechit (SP) rounds in it.

 

[robertrwalsh]

My dad was with the Military Police (Army) in the Pacific during WWII and they had some Winchester Model 97 shotguns for various uses. He did not speak to any Marine use and the MPs were, strictly speaking, non-combat roles. He did mention things like payroll guard duty if I remember correctly, but I would not swear to that.

 

[Narragansett]

I could not comment on the integrity of the M97, but prior to WW2 they were used extensively in WW1 where they saw a lot of trench warfare. Those were dirty muddy trenches they were being used in. I might surmise that they worked well enough to be used in the next big campaign.

I know I love my M97 riot gun that I have had for most of 50 years

 

[DWalt]

Allegedly, some of the WWI shotgun’s use was for a form of skeet shooting, at grenades in mid air thrown by Germans.

There is a story that the American shotguns were so effective in the trenches that the German Army HQ threatened to summarily execute any American captured with a shotgun in his possession. General Pershing responded that the first time that happened, he would issue a “take no prisoners” order to his troops, and that ended the threat. Maybe true, maybe not.

 

[30-30remchester]

Around 1911 IIRC a Winchester employee went to a rack of 97's and grabbed one for the ammunition testing room. In the 1940's the firing pin return spring appeared to be getting weak, so they replaced it. It was then that they calculated that it had fired one and a quarter million rounds of ammo. The gun was a full choke model, so they did a pattern test and after all those rounds the pattern was still tighter than full. They called the gun "Old Reliable" and had quite an advertising campaign with it as the center of attention.

 

[richrd]

Back in the mid 70s I shot trap with an old sarge that said he carried a 97 loaded with steel balls as an anti tank gun.

Said if they could get to a tank they would shove the barrel in a gun port and when the shot quit bouncing around there would be no one left alive.

True or not, it was a good story. But knowing him, I believe it.

 

[Drm50]

When I was in RVn guys that were married could go to Hawii or Japan for R&R visit with wife. A lot of them bought shotguns back in country. Issue shotguns were in short supply. They put the hacksaw to anything they could get. * The buckshot for m79 was a joke, Buck out of a 12g wasn’t.

 

[Harmonica]

..I've read and researched WW2 for over 40 years....but haven't been reading much for the last 10 years or so...I've forgotten a lot of stuff
...regarding challenging conditions of wars, at the Chosin , in Korea, it got down to 30 below 0--that's not wind chill...my dad got wounded there, and got flown out...he said it was one ''of the happiest days'' of my life, because it got him out of the cold ...the USMC was surrounded and outnumbered by the Chinese by about 10 - 1
....the USMC had Springfield M1903s mostly, at Guadalcanal, the ''first'' major offensive...a lot of the fighting was at night...so a bolt action, in the jungle, at night = not efficient..so the MGs were critical for defense...
...later on, the Army landed, and brought M1s with them
..so a shotgun, might be ''better'' in the jungle, especially at night
...the USMC had the M50 Reising sub-machine gun at the Canal, but it was not good at all

 

[scooter123]

Be aware in WWI paper shotshells were issued to the troops for use in the shotguns. WWI was a notably WET war, so shotguns did NOT prove to be very useful because most would jam solid on the first shot fired if the gun was kept loaded and if it was unloaded it was found that wet paper shells can't be chambered.

 

[fordson]

I read lots of history. I’ve read about the Marines use of the M97 and other shotguns during the Pacific War and how effective they were. However, I’ve not read anything as to their durability or reliability after repeated campaigns. I would imagine that at some point, the shotguns must have seen a depot where they were refurbished.

 

[6518John]

...regarding challenging conditions of wars, at the Chosin , in Korea, it got down to 30 below 0--that's not wind chill...my dad got wounded there, and got flown out...he said it was one ''of the happiest days'' of my life, because it got him out of the cold ...the USMC was surrounded and outnumbered by the Chinese by about 10 - 1

One of my dad’s best friends at the VFW Hall was a member of the Chosin Few. He said “I spent 17 days at Frozen Chosin. And I have spent the rest of my life trying to thaw out!”

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I use a sawed off (18.1") 97 made in 1904 in Cowboy Action Shooting. The first time I detail stripped it down I had to follow the instructions very carefully. I did it a year later completely by memory and could probably do it blindfolded with a refresher of one take down! While complicated by current standards, it is basic and logical by the standards of pre WWI. The innards of that French Machine gun issued to Marines in WWI are a nightmare by any standard any time.

As to swollen ammo, loading through the ejection port, one at a time is the fastest way to shoot more that 6 consecutive shoots. The chamber is able to handle swollen paper rounds, the tube magazine does not! I have been there and got the T-shirt!
I also own a like new 97 made in 1954. People ask me when I'm going to start using the nicer gun? I tell them when the 1904 gun is worn out. I have owned it since 1992 and have put around 25 to 30 thousand rounds through it, between events and practice. (25 to 50 shots 25 times a year and 50 to 100 a week for practice during that 25 week season!) I have tried every type of ammo possible, plastic hull, all brass hull and Federal paper hull, my old gun likes the paper hulls best!

Ivan

 

[robvious]

the "97" stands for how many ways there are for it to break.. I would not want to bet my life on one in a humid environment. My understanding is the 97 was not a frontline issued weapon, and the more modern Winchester model 12, Stevens 520-30, etc. were used..

 

[DWalt]

I also used a 97 for CAS. Mine was from the WWI era, but I kept the original long full-choke barrel. I had no problems whatsoever with it but then CAS is not exactly like being in combat on Guadalcanal. If you had the instructions, it was not difficult to tear it down completely. When I quit CAS, I found it somewhat difficult to sell, not too much interest in it. I ended up selling it to another CAS shooter for somewhat less than I felt it was worth.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I have this one.



Came with two barrels, both with the same SN.

I'm not sure about reliability but it worked just fine the last time I shot it about 60 years ago.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

When I clean and lube mine in detail. I use a dry lube (Elmer's) and only apply to one surface per interface. This reduces powder fouling build-up. I really only cleaned it once, or twice a year.

Ivan

 

[armadillo]

I knew a man who served in the Marines in the Pacific from the beginning of WWII. He handled a lot of different weapons including the M-97.
He was not a big fan of the M-97, but said the ability to hold the trigger back and slam-fire it was a big advantage. He said they used brass cased ammo.

He also said they were told to never get taken prisoner with buckshot ammo because they would be executed with a sword as a war criminal.

 

[robvious]

found a group shot for the WWII shotgun discussion... and a couple more