Model 25-2 Competition trigger pull weights question

[cmansguns]

Several weeks ago I sold a Model 25-2 (45acp) 6-1/2", 3T's, checkered target stocks with football relief to another Member here on the Forum.

The buyer expressed that the gun was NOT in excellent condition and had a bad trigger job and a "in the white" mainspring. Also he found faults with the cosmetic condition, felt the trigger pulls were way off and so to make a long story short....YES...I inadvertently had not shown some obvious defects...I had instead relied upon the factory Letter of Authenticity, and never spotted the obvious.

The gun was returned to me and I immediately sent USPS Money Orders to the buyer for a full refund.

First time (and last time I assure you) that I will incorrectly list something for sale on this or any other Forum.

Now I have shot the gun again, using full moons and Blazer Brass factory 230 gr. FMJ.......same as the hundreds of rounds fired over the years I've owned this gun. It is still VERY accurate, one hand, offhand, at 10 yards, more so in SA but still very nice in DA.

In the posts of 02/14/2023 under "Bad trigger job..." in "Smithing" by the buyer he denotes the flaws he found including the ground mainspring.

This morning after yesterdays decent range session I got out my Lyman digital trigger pull gauge and measured. Revolver held fast in padded vise on workbench, 45acp snap caps in full moon clip, gauge zeroed (set for lbs-ozs) and several 10 reading groups taken then the gauge does the averaging. Bottom line:
Single Action: AVERAGE = 2 lbs-12ozs (2-3/4 lbs); Double Action: AVERAGE = 6 lbs - 8 ozs (6-1/2 lbs).

I am interested in what you folks say for comments, especially Protocol Design if he sees this, as he had a comment in the 2/14/23 post that he had shot a lot of competition with "light" trigger pulls.

I have had NO failures to fire (light strikes) in DA and I don't at all feel the SA pull is "hair trigger" region but that could be just me.

I have read that "factory pull weights" for revolvers are typically 4.5 lbs SA and 13-15 lbs DA, but I really have no clue.

I can purchase a new factory mainspring and rebound spring from Midway for low dollars, but I do intend on re-listing for sale again (with any and all faults clearly shown). I do NOT want to sell a gun that MAY be unsafe...so please give me your comments on trigger pull weight for S&W revolvers.

The Lyman gauge stops at 12 lbs so I am not subjecting ti anything greater than that in DA.

Thanks for listening (and hopefully commenting if you know).

 

[Rlg#17]

Several weeks ago I sold a Model 25-2 (45acp) 6-1/2", 3T's, checkered target stocks with football relief to another Member here on the Forum.

The buyer expressed that the gun was NOT in excellent condition and had a bad trigger job and a "in the white" mainspring. Also he found faults with the cosmetic condition, felt the trigger pulls were way off and so to make a long story short....YES...I inadvertently had not shown some obvious defects...I had instead relied upon the factory Letter of Authenticity, and never spotted the obvious.

The gun was returned to me and I immediately sent USPS Money Orders to the buyer for a full refund.

First time (and last time I assure you) that I will incorrectly list something for sale on this or any other Forum.

Now I have shot the gun again, using full moons and Blazer Brass factory 230 gr. FMJ.......same as the hundreds of rounds fired over the years I've owned this gun. It is still VERY accurate, one hand, offhand, at 10 yards, more so in SA but still very nice in DA.

In the posts of 02/14/2023 under "Bad trigger job..." in "Smithing" by the buyer he denotes the flaws he found including the ground mainspring.

This morning after yesterdays decent range session I got out my Lyman digital trigger pull gauge and measured. Revolver held fast in padded vise on workbench, 45acp snap caps in full moon clip, gauge zeroed (set for lbs-ozs) and several 10 reading groups taken then the gauge does the averaging. Bottom line:
Single Action: AVERAGE = 2 lbs-12ozs (2-3/4 lbs); Double Action: AVERAGE = 6 lbs - 8 ozs (6-1/2 lbs).

I am interested in what you folks say for comments, especially Protocol Design if he sees this, as he had a comment in the 2/14/23 post that he had shot a lot of competition with "light" trigger pulls.

I have had NO failures to fire (light strikes) in DA and I don't at all feel the SA pull is "hair trigger" region but that could be just me.

I have read that "factory pull weights" for revolvers are typically 4.5 lbs SA and 13-15 lbs DA, but I really have no clue.

I can purchase a new factory mainspring and rebound spring from Midway for low dollars, but I do intend on re-listing for sale again (with any and all faults clearly shown). I do NOT want to sell a gun that MAY be unsafe...so please give me your comments on trigger pull weight for S&W revolvers.

The Lyman gauge stops at 12 lbs so I am not subjecting ti anything greater than that in DA.

Thanks for listening (and hopefully commenting if you know).

Single action is at the low end, but in spec. Double action is out of spec for sure! Besides the Ground main spring what else was done? Ground strain screw, clipped or reduced rebound slide spring, etc?

Imho, 6lb 8 oz isn’t going to fire anything “reliably” at that weight. With this little bit of information I would guess that bubba has had his way with this revolver pretty good…

Light isn’t the goal, smooth is what you need in a trigger. Putti back to stock, sell it’s stock, hopefully nothing too bad as done to it!

Regards, Rick Gibbs

 

[Protocall_Design]

Your findings are inline with a well tuned, nice-to-shoot S&W revolver. Mine are all in the 5.5 to 6.5 lb. DA range. I have been winning matches from 1979 till now, shooting guns like this, and have no problems with light strikes or misfires. You are not winning if your gun doesn't work right. I use only unaltered original S&W mainsprings.

I never shoot SA, even on the 629 that shoots from 50 to 200 meters for Met. Sil. A 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 lb. SA trigger pull with no pushoff is considered to be the norm for good shooting and safe handling in the competition world.

There are those who think that any alterations from factory is damaged goods because no one could possibly do as good of work as the factory. They are wrong.

 

[series guy]

I set all my guns up with a 2 - 2 1/2 pound S/A and 8 pound D/A trigger. I use power rib main springs but back in the day sanded or stoned mainsprings were the ticket. I am constantly amazed by how many folks fret about the specs or imagined defects before they ever pull the trigger. Shoot the gun, enjoy the gun.

 

[armorer951]

Factory armorers fret about factory specs because we can be held criminally and civilly liable.

There is, thankfully, a happy medium governed by personal integrity, common sense, constant oversight, and good judgement. Enjoy.

 

[TheTinMan]

I bought a revolver from a forum member late last year. After we had agreed on the deal he mentioned “oh the previous owner did some work in it and the trigger may be a bit light.” I knew of the guy who did the work and took a chance in it.

Double action pull was 8 lbs. 4 oz. Just fine IMHO. The single action pull was only 2 pounds, very smooth and very short. The rebound spring had been clipped 4 or 5 coils - just get a lighter one from Wolff. Don’t do that!

A 13 lb. rebound spring got the single action pull up to 2 lbs. 12 ounces - a nice spot for a target pistol for me. Since that pushed the double action pull up, I installed a Wolff reduced power mainspring which just happened to take the DA pull right back to where it started.

But numbers aren’t the whole story. I bought a BUL 1911 with what felt like a hair trigger to me. It measured 3 pounds - just really short and really smooth with no takeup and zero over travel. IOW a perfect trigger. That would be fine for a range gun, but I bought that 1911 for EDC and raised the trigger pull to just under 4 lbs. I have a carry revolver with a double action trigger pull just over 6 lbs. that seems great to me. In that gun I don’t worry about the single action pull - I’ll never use that in a self defense situation.

When I purchase a firearm I expect that it will be un-modified unless the seller disclosed modifications. However, that isn’t always the case.

P.S. I don’t think I’ve ever had a light primer strike with a Wolff reduced power mainspring.

 

[cmansguns]

Moving forward with my Model 25-2-Thanks for clarifying

Many thanks to those who replied on the trigger pull weights. I also checked my Jerry Kuhnhausen & Grant Cunningham books mostly to see the diagrams and shop notes on how the parts all interact.

For myself, moving forward, I'm just going to enjoy this Model 25-2 just as it is now, with the lightly ground mainspring and the light trigger pulls in both DA and SA. It just shoots great for me, and is 100% reliable in DA. It will not perform any self defense duty so fun, fun, fun.

On the other hand, realizing that light pulls may not be for everyone, I ordered a new factory original flat mainspring, and factory strain screw, factory rebound slide assembly (w/pin), and a factory rebound slide spring from Numrich. Cheap enough to put in a plastic baggie and if and when I do sell this gun I'll include the parts if a buyer wants to go back to stock.

I will be pulling the sideplate just to satisfy my curiosity regarding the visible polishing of the trigger, but the hammer retains all case hardening color, so I don't know if there was ever any work done on the sears/notches, etc.

This is also the gun that had the "Double Ball Crane Lock" added long ago that was discussed in prior posts, so now My "quadruple lock" S&W. According to the factory Letter this gun shipped 2-14-1972 to Service Armament Co, Ridgefield NJ who I believe was the predecessor to Navy Arms, so who knows...maybe the work was done there..I'll never know.

PS: One other addition. Checking a box in the closet labelled "grips and misc gun parts" I found a old Pachmeyer "Gripper" (one piece) rubber for N Frame. Sheesh!! They fit and actually are quicker and a tad easier to reload the full moon clips as well as feeling quite comfortable vs the N Frame Target grips with football relief.

Now....to get to the range and try this gun again with the rubber grips.

Again....thanks for the replies, my mind is a lot more at ease now.

 

[TheTinMan]

Many thanks to those who replied on the trigger pull weights.
<snip>
This is also the gun that had the "Double Ball Crane Lock" added long ago that was discussed in prior posts, so now My "quadruple lock" S&W. According to the factory Letter this gun shipped 2-14-1972 to Service Armament Co, Ridgefield NJ who I believe was the predecessor to Navy Arms, so who knows...maybe the work was done there..I'll never know.

<snip>

I recently bought a S&W 25-10 that came from the factory a single ball detent; however, the Performance Center did the crane ball detent differently. Thanks for sharing that!

Chip

 

[Breakaway500]

As long as there is NO push off and there is reliable (it always fires) ignition I don't care how light the trigger pull is,as in lighter the better. But..it must be 100% consistent.

It's not like you are going to accidently pop off two rounds instead of 1. That I have done...with uber-light trigger semi autos.

 

[stu1ritter]

My S&W factory armorers manual lists 2.5 pounds as the minimum weight for a single action trigger pull. There is no specification for the double action pull weight, only the mainspring weight, or, how much weight will the hammer lift without cocking.

Stu

 

[cmansguns]

UPDATE - Pulled the sideplate- more ? on what I see

As in my post #7 above..I shot this gun again with more factory 230 gr FMJ ammo, and again still accurate and still DA trigger pull of 6.5 lbs. This time I used the Pachmeyer "Gripper" one-piece rubber grips which did make reloading with full moon clips (and extraction) much easier than the checkered S&W wood grips with football cut-out.

So out of pure curiosity I pulled the sideplate wiped out what oil film lube I could find so that pictures would at least not reflect (hopefully) gloss surfaces.

Some observations, the trigger has been polished and I don't see any obvious marks, it looks mirror smooth. The actual lower trigger where your finger contacts is still case hardened and grooved (original target trigger).

Rebound slide looks original and spring doesn't appear modified, as compared to new one's I received from Numrich.

Hand appears to be also polished, but I don't know if this is common to do on a action job or not.

The original hammer has full case hardening colors and appears normal to me.

The strain screw relationship to the polished or ground mainspring is tight and looks normal to me but any comments are solicited.

What I found totally missing is the hammer block. Is removing the hammer block normal when setting up a gun for competition? Since this is a safety item, should I buy one and reinstall?

I did buy a factory new mainspring and a rebound slide (with pin) and spring along with a new strain screw in case a future buyer would want to return to factory stock.

I welcome any and all comments and suggestions. Again..the gun shoots very well, the action is really butter smooth, but if there is any safety issue I want to correct it for personal use. Nobody other than me shoots this gun and there is no push off fully cocked, even though single action pull is 2-3/4 lbs.

I know that some comments earlier on this gun indicated that bubba went at it, and even though I bought this revolver years ago from a respected published contributor to the SCSW 3rd Edition, and a former competition shooter, I cannot verify who actually modified this gun, and my factory Letter only shows the 1972 configuration and ship to of Service Armament Co of Ridgefiled NJ.

I will be offering this gun for sale on this Forum in the future but this time will list it as it is instead of listing per the LOA but my concerns right now are 1: safety first...do I need to install a hammer block? and 2: any comments on what you can see of the modifications or should I return it to stock?

Thanks for all of your replies and input. I have always relied heavily on this Forum for information and comments about my guns....good or bad.

 

[usedkid]

I would definitely install the hammer block...it serves as a safeguard if the gun is dropped on the hammer.

 

[Fullmetaljacket]

Many thanks to those who replied on the trigger pull weights. I also checked my Jerry Kuhnhausen & Grant Cunningham books mostly to see the diagrams and shop notes on how the parts all interact.

For myself, moving forward, I'm just going to enjoy this Model 25-2 just as it is now, with the lightly ground mainspring and the light trigger pulls in both DA and SA. It just shoots great for me, and is 100% reliable in DA. It will not perform any self defense duty so fun, fun, fun.

On the other hand, realizing that light pulls may not be for everyone, I ordered a new factory original flat mainspring, and factory strain screw, factory rebound slide assembly (w/pin), and a factory rebound slide spring from Numrich. Cheap enough to put in a plastic baggie and if and when I do sell this gun I'll include the parts if a buyer wants to go back to stock.

I will be pulling the sideplate just to satisfy my curiosity regarding the visible polishing of the trigger, but the hammer retains all case hardening color, so I don't know if there was ever any work done on the sears/notches, etc.

This is also the gun that had the "Double Ball Crane Lock" added long ago that was discussed in prior posts, so now My "quadruple lock" S&W. According to the factory Letter this gun shipped 2-14-1972 to Service Armament Co, Ridgefield NJ who I believe was the predecessor to Navy Arms, so who knows...maybe the work was done there..I'll never know.

PS: One other addition. Checking a box in the closet labelled "grips and misc gun parts" I found a old Pachmeyer "Gripper" (one piece) rubber for N Frame. Sheesh!! They fit and actually are quicker and a tad easier to reload the full moon clips as well as feeling quite comfortable vs the N Frame Target grips with football relief.

Now....to get to the range and try this gun again with the rubber grips.

Again....thanks for the replies, my mind is a lot more at ease now.

Wow. I have 25-2 serial no. 24158, lettered as shipping to Service Armament in NJ on the same day, 2/14/72. Have to assume they were in the same shipment. Mine also has a fantastic smooth action and a very light SA pull. I've not measured it but I do shoot bullseye and it's right where I like it, just over 2 lbs. DA is very smooth and light, again I have not measured the pull weight. The mainspring appears factory stock. I don't remember any non-stock looking polishing, cut springs etc. when I had it apart. I did have an occasional light strike but only with one ammo batch so I chalked it up to my own handloads. Honestly the action was so nice I didn't care.

 

[stu1ritter]

The hammer block and the track that it runs in on the sideplate can be polished so that the block has no influence on the trigger pull.

Stu

 

[Protocall_Design]

Since the hammer still has a spur, I would install a hammer block. I keep them in all my guns, even though the hammers are bobbed. The hammer block can make the action feel a little gritty, so many who do an action job take them out.

The hammer block is blanked out in a punch press die. The die partly shears and partly breaks the metal all the way around the part. You can clearly see this if you look for it. It also does the same for the triangle hole in the bottom part. The side pin on the rebound slide runs in this hole and contacts the rough surface of the hole interior. If you file the 2 long sides of the triangle hole to a smooth surface, then you can have the hammer block in and won't even know it's there, just by the feel of the action. All the roughness has been removed.

Personally, I would buy that gun in a heartbeat. It's just like the ones I shoot all the time, way nicer to use than a factory stock gun. Sadly, the majority of revo owners will never know what it's like to shoot a really good DA revolver.

 

[series guy]

Install the hammer block and shoot and enjoy the gun. It is the unhappy buyers loss as he just couldn’t appreciate a finely tuned revolver. Nothing on the gun has been harmed. It’s a very fine example.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Just my own $.02, and worth every penny of it. The 25-2 (and 25, etc.) was designed to be a "Bullseye" pistol, presumably to be used in .45 Cal matches. NRA rules set the lower limit of trigger pull of a revolver at 2.5 pounds. I don't know what out-of-box trigger pulls on 25-2s were back then, but I surely would not call a 2.5 -pound trigger pull out of spec. And I certainly wouldn't complain about a clean reliable DA pull that popped all primers, particularly if it were light.

Some people would ***** if you hung 'em with a new rope.

Glad to hear that your revolver is in good hands now.

 

[aplombardo]

The last thing I would do with a reliable, sub 7Lb DA 5-2 is made it "heavier". Enjoy it.

 

[BC38]

The last thing I would do with a reliable, sub 7Lb DA 5-2 is made it "heavier". Enjoy it.

^^^THIS^^^
As long as you aren't getting any light strikes with a wide variety of ammo I wouldn't do a thing to it except reinstall a polished hammer block. Even if that somehow added a couple of ounces to the trigger pull, it would still be a very nicely tuned action.