Model 3 38-44 target

jinx

US Veteran
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
1,090
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Wyoming
Friend of mine just bought a S&W 38-44 S&W Ctg. I am going to say it is a model 3.Has adjustable sights on the rear. Barrel has been shortened to 5 inches and a different front sight installed. You can tell because the front sight covers the first few letters of the words stamped into the top of the barrel. Left side of barrel is marked 38-44 S&W Ctg.
The cylinder looks to be a 44 caliber cylinder that has been sleeved to make it 38 caliber. The barrel does not appear to be sleeved and is marked as 38-44. Cylinder and gun butt are same serial number{4321}
Can anyone tell me if S&W used 44 caliber cylinders and sleeved them to 38? Could this be an old time gunsmith building something from available parts?
I just found it odd that a 44 cylinder would be sleeved to 38 way back then.
Thank Ron Treloar
 
Register to hide this ad
Sounds like and Outdoorsman that has been cut down. I have not heard of S&W using a .44 cylinder and sleeving it, but figure those with a lot more knowledge will pipe in. It is interesting that the numbering matches, but that's an unusual serial number - I think 38-44s started in the low 30,000's.

EDITED TO RECOGNIZE I DIDN'T READ CAREFULLY ENOUGH...NEVERMIND!!!
 
Last edited:
Need more details.

It sounds like maybe a New Model 3, single action top-break revolver if it has a small frame hump behind the hammer transitioning into the butt-frame? Let us know.

Also, there is a serial number on the barrel assembly that can be used to tell if the barrel was original to the gun, but from what you are saying, I doubt it. From the rear of the top strap, lift the latch and look straight forward to see vertical steel blocks on either side of the latch. There should be numbers stamped on one or both sides. The latch should also be stamped on the underside. What are those numbers? It is unlikely that the factory would have sleeved a 44 cylinder, unless it was a very late example, but the serial number puts a New Model 3 at before 1880.
 
Last edited:
Thanks to you all for the info. I will take another look at it per your requests.
 
NEVER SAY NEVER

If it said 38-44 S&W on the barrel, it's a NM #3---like Gary said; but a very late NM #3 Target.

I don't buy the factory sleeving a cylinder, but I've learned my lesson about saying never.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Everything points to a New Model #3 Target chambered in .38-44. This was a companion revolver to the .32-44 Target. Both were serial numbered in their own group as they were target revolvers manufactured by Smith & Wesson. They were manufactured to use the .44 frame and cylinder but were chambered in lesser calibers. No sleeves were harmed in the manufacture of these revolvers.
 
Given the above commentary, check the length of the cylinder if you can? It should be 1 7/16" or 1 9/16" long.

It is my understanding that the 38-44 and several other calibers were all made in one serial number order? Only the Turkish rimfire and the Frontier 44-40 had their own serial number range?

According to the SWCA database, the New Model 3 38-44 does show up in the serial number range from 1500 to 3000. That is one reason why I ask about the cylinder, because those early standard numbers would have all had the short cylinder. No more NM3s appear in the database with that caliber, but it is understood that some were made very late in production and late production guns were the only ones that had caliber markings. The longer cylinder did not appear until after the introduction of the 44-40 Frontier NM3 in 1885.

Just an aside, while searching the database, I ran across two 38 Long Colt (38 US Service) caliber NM3s and one of them was sent to Theodore Roosevelt in 1898! That is only the second model S&W revolver that was ever found with that caliber. Roy doesn't even have that one in his book. The other 38 Long Colt had a note that only 5 or 10 were made.

Forgot to add photos
 

Attachments

  • TR NM3.jpg
    TR NM3.jpg
    23.4 KB · Views: 101
  • TR NM3a.jpg
    TR NM3a.jpg
    45.2 KB · Views: 99
  • TR NM3b.jpg
    TR NM3b.jpg
    100.4 KB · Views: 96
Last edited:
Thanks Ralph. I forgot that entry. It was only 32-44 and 38-44 in that series, from 1887 to 1910, so likely those would have been the long cylinder guns. Targets in other calibers would have been in the standard serial number series, but would guess that 44-40 targets would have been in the Frontier series.

So the barrel would likely have had a caliber stamping??
 
I guess we are not sure what the OP has yet, since he needs to look at the gun again, but this thread is posted in the antique section and is labeled a Model 3, so seems likely that it is a top-break.

Ralph, just a quick question about another caliber. There were several entries in the database listed in 38-40. The serial numbers were from around 1 to 50 and ship dates were right sfter the turn of the 20th Century, so is this another little known serial number range?
 
Just came back from looking this gun over again. Flipping up the rear sight, it is in fact the same serial number as the butt of the gun and the cylinder.{4321}. The cylinder is 1 9/16" in length. I could not find a serial number on the barrel, probably not looking in the right place.I can see where the sleeves were "staked" in place. The marks are on the front of the cylinder. I would think that means they were inserted from the front? And then staked in. No evidence of a weld of any kind. Probably no such thing way back when.
I have taken several pictures with my cell phone that seem to be good. However, I am a dinosaur when it comes to computer literacy so have no equipment or know how to post these photos.
May I ask you posters to give me a cell phone number to send these photos to? I am able to at least do that. That way maybe you could post these pictures.
Thank you
Ron Treloar
 
I guess we are not sure what the OP has yet, since he needs to look at the gun again, but this thread is posted in the antique section and is labeled a Model 3, so seems likely that it is a top-break.

Ralph, just a quick question about another caliber. There were several entries in the database listed in 38-40. The serial numbers were from around 1 to 50 and ship dates were right sfter the turn of the 20th Century, so is this another little known serial number range?

Yes---1-74 if memory serves. And that's not counting the one I had in 38-40 (#3914-----from the NM #3 Target series---where all of them were either 32-44 or 38-44.) Well, maybe not ALL of them---------

And I'll be back later on to clear up this short/long cylinder business---if it still needs clearing up by then.

Ralph Tremaine

On second thought, all the yard boy grunt work that needs to be done isn't going to increase, so we'll tend to cleaning up this litter first. For openers, the 38-44 S&W cartridge from the 19th century has nothing whatsoever to do with the 38/44 revolver from the 20th century----which dined on souped up 38 S&W Special fodder.

Next, to the short/long cylinder business: "Most (NM #3's) used 1 7/16" cylinders but 1 9/16" cylinders were used on some after about serial number 30000." (N&J) (One of mine, #30261, pictured on page 190 of N&J Revised, still had the short cylinder.) Now, to the NM #3 Targets (So named because they're a separate series with their own separate serial numbers (1-4333)----and I reckon that's because they were the first S&W to carry adjustable sights as standard equipment.) " All revolvers through serial number 3644 had 1 7/16" cylinders. Starting with 3645 all revolvers, both 38-44 and 32-44, had 1 9/16" cylinders." (N&J)
 
Last edited:
I sent Bmur the photos and he graciously agreed to post the pics. Thanks to Bmur for that favor as I do not have the knowledge or wherewithal to do that.
 
My question has been answered. Smith and Wesson did not and would not put sleeves in revolver. I don't think any body would. No reason to, they made the guns. All the parts are there.
I have to wonder why a "shade tree mechanic" or a gunsmith or just someone that was tinkering with guns would go to all the trouble to build this? Highly dangerous, and again, all the parts are available and already factory made.
Maybe just because he could.
Thanks again for all the help
Ron
 
Here is a review I wrote on the Forum a couple years ago while researching this caliber. Hope it helps.

Solving the 38 Single Shot Accuracy Mystery

I have been struggling with a 38 Single Shot barrel I had acquired through a source that purchased a large lot of factory leftover stock years ago. These barrels had never been issued and were in the white without serial numbers, but had the proper barrel rib stamping for a Model of '91. I purchased a 10" barrel in, what was advertised as 38 S&W. This source had all calibers originally available at the time, but I knew that the 38 barrel was the most uncommon caliber out there, so I bought one.

That barrel came from Poppert's years ago. It was said that they were one of the companies that bought out some of the remaining stock of single shot barrels and parts many years ago. I ordered the new-old-stock 38 Single Shot barrel in the white to go with my Model 1891 SA revolver. Shot a lot of 38 S&W ammo in the gun without much accuracy until I noticed that the chamber was quite long. Measuring it I determined it matched the 38/44 case exactly.

I called Poppert's for more data and they stated that all barrels were sold as they came from the factory and offered to trade it back to them for a short chambered 38 S&W barrel, but I said no thanks, I'll keep it. My assumption is that somebody in the S&W factory did some experimentation and modified the chamber to take the long brass. Maybe did some testing, but never pursued it further.

I cannot validate any of this information beyond what was told to me, but the results of my recreating the original loads, was that target shot at 25 yards.

I had a nice Model of 1891 factory target revolver, 38 S&W, that I had received from a SWCA member and thought that barrel would complement the revolver. After receiving the barrel, I blued it and, through the assistance of a few more members here, I acquired and/or made parts to install an extractor, sights, and put together the Single Shot. On my first trip to the range, plus several more, I could not come up with a load that would hit paper at 25 yards and very inaccurate at 50 feet. Trying several different types of bullets, powders, and crimp styles, I saw no improvements. As I was cleaning the barrel recently, I finally noticed the chamber seemed quite deep, so measuring the chamber I found it to be much longer than a 38 S&W round. Now thinking it might have been bored out for 357 brass. Loaded up some 357 Mag cases with .360 bullets and they would chamber easily and still seemed short, plus there was no improvement at the range. Was about to give up on the SS barrel, but a very learned member (Ralph) suggested that I check the chamber measurement and compare it to a 38/44 Target case. As it turns out, the chamber was exactly the same length as an old 38-44 Target round. The original cartridges were loaded as follows" The 38-44 is a special target cartridge containing 20 grs of powder and 146 of lead either self-lubricated or grooved bullet. Bullet is seated even with mouth of shell. Penetration 6 7/8 in pine boards. Gallery charge, 6grs of powder and 70gr round ball loaded in same shell.

In order to reproduce the ballistics of the original caliber, I acquired 50 rounds of 357 Remington Max and cut it down to just under 1.5". Used a 158 grain gas check SWC. The reason for the selection was that the bullets dropped from my mold at .361", just what I needed. I loaded as specified with BP and shot over a chronograph and got around 700 fps. I then worked up a olad using 3.2 grains of Unique and filled the case with Puflon. Velocity averaged 661 fps and accuracy improved dramatically at 25 yards. Now I am onto something here and look forward to loading more ammo to shoot at longer ranges with different powders and bullets to further improve accuracy.

Pictures are of the assembled set that I had shared when I first put together a case for the set. The chamber shows no sign of ever being bored out, so am wondering if it was something the factory may have played with during the production time of the 1st Model Single Shot? If so, I might have the only 38/44 Target barrel out there???? Just another fun adventure with a S&W.
 

Attachments

  • 38-44 S&W.jpg
    38-44 S&W.jpg
    67 KB · Views: 58
  • 38-44 S&Wa.jpg
    38-44 S&Wa.jpg
    18.7 KB · Views: 65
  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    158.7 KB · Views: 58
  • 6.jpg
    6.jpg
    85.6 KB · Views: 67
  • 7.jpg
    7.jpg
    102.6 KB · Views: 50
As for the 38/44 origins, I have a brochure for the revolver and assume it is from 1930, when the 38/44 Outdoorsman was introduced. Not much on the ballistics, but interesting read anyway. I also have the following in my notes about the performance of the cartridge.

The first 38/44 Heavy Duty was shipped from Smith & Wesson on 2 April 1930. This model was built in response to law enforcement's requirement for an arm that would shoot a high speed round which could penetrate car bodies and bullet proof vests. The collaboration between Smith & Wesson, Remington and Elmer Keith produced the 38/44 S&W cartridge which could launch a 158 grain bullet at 1175 fps and producing 460 foot pounds of energy. This round would penetrate 11ea 7/8inch thick boards and would go thru the trunk of a car, seats, dash and into the engine area. The factory first offered this gun in a 5 inch barrel, blue or nickel finish and service stocks. Some special orders were received early in production for the pistol with adjustable sights which was the precursor of the 38/44 Outdoorsman which would first appear in 1931.
 

Attachments

  • 38-44 Trifold front.jpg
    38-44 Trifold front.jpg
    148.8 KB · Views: 26
  • 38-44 Trifold inside.jpg
    38-44 Trifold inside.jpg
    97.8 KB · Views: 24
Never held a 38-44 or 32-44, but they must be heavy guns. Lots of extra metal in the cylinder and barrel.

Yes, brass would fit right to the face of a 1 7/16" cylinder. I have a couple of original UMC 38-44 cartridges and they measure 1.46".
 
Never held a 38-44 or 32-44, but they must be heavy guns. Lots of extra metal in the cylinder and barrel.

Yes, brass would fit right to the face of a 1 7/16" cylinder. I have a couple of original UMC 38-44 cartridges and they measure 1.46".

Yeah, that was the whole idea of the 38-44----zero throat----the bullet's out of the case, and immediately into the rifling. The only thing better is the so called Olympic Chamber in some 3rd Model Single Shots---the bullet's already in the rifling when it's fired. The cartridge was Ira Paine's baby---his design. The old wives tales have it he set records with the gun and cartridge combination that have never been beaten. I don't know the truth of that one way or the other---but it wouldn't surprise me.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Be careful, the first introduced .38-44 was a different cartridge than the "The first 38/44 Heavy Duty" cartridge.

To the OP, does the cylinder serial number match the frame? I suspect that the original cylinder failed from shooting modern .38-44 rounds and a gunsmith sleeved a .44 cylinder back to the .38.
 
Be careful, the first introduced .38-44 was a different cartridge than the "The first 38/44 Heavy Duty" cartridge.

To the OP, does the cylinder serial number match the frame? I suspect that the original cylinder failed from shooting modern .38-44 rounds and a gunsmith sleeved a .44 cylinder back to the .38.

Yeah---he says the numbers match in his first post, so I reckon it is what it is, and we'll never know.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Back
Top