Model 36 Loads

[Heckenschuss]

I'm double checking the safety of this load for my old .38 snub nose model 36. I've fired less than 2000 rounds through this old gal and still have the box she came in. I've worked up a round: 5.0grains 231 ball powder with a 110 grain barnes TXC-XP. My C. O. L. is 1.499. Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson tell me this gal cannot handle +P, and this load (numerous references) should produce pressures around the middle of the standard .38 range. Does anyone know if this particular load could be subject to abnormal pressure build up?

 

[chief38]

Without knowing exactly what the cpu is, no one can really say if it is safe or not.

My personal opinion is that in an old Chief's Special you would be better served with a 158 grain Buffalo Bore NON +P LSWCHP. That load is standard pressure, will give you 860 ft./second out of a 2" barrel, and is actually a LOT faster and MORE potent than the +P loading's from the Big 3 Co's. They will also shoot POI=POI unlike 110 grainer's.



Regards,
Chief38

 

[riverrat38]

"That load is standard pressure, will give you 860 ft. lbs. of energy out of a 2" barrel..."


Not unless the velocity out of the barrel is 1560 FPS. That would be .41 Mag territory. But I suspect you meant 860 FPS out of the barrel. I think that is what the BB site shows.
Its a potent load and will recoil like one. Even though it is safe to shoot, it will still hammer the gun like a plus P, due to the stout power factor (momentum). The fact that it is a non plus P pressure load means that it will not blow the gun up, not that it will not cause faster wear. I have been going around on this same thing for my M442, and I have settled on Double Taps 150 gr hardcast wad cutter load. It is midway between the BB load and a standard target wad cutter load. Just right! But my M442 shots to POA with fast 125 gr bullets, not 158 gr. Maybe, I should be using Federal 125 gr NyClad bullets. But, I prefer the penetration from the wad cutter. I don't think I can have it all from a standard pressure .38 cal round, expansion and penetration. I will not give up penetration for expansion, unless I can get at least about 15 inches of the former. Others might not be so one sided in their thinking! I do use the BB 150 gr wad cutter loads in my steel gun. It has about the same power factor as the 158gr non plus P LSWC-HP that you mentioned, quite stout in the recoil dept.


rat

 

[Ironhand]

Where does one find Federal Nyclads these days? They are out of stock, and have been for quite some time, everywhere I look. I'd like to have some for my 49 Bodyguard.

 

[chief38]

Riverrat38:

Sorry about the typo. I meant to say 860 ft / second, NOT 860 ft lbs. I just went back to the post and corrected it.

thanks for picking it up.

Chief38

 

[ArchAngelCD]

S&W says any post-WWII all steel revolver can shoot +P ammo. To be safe I tell people, if it's all steel and it has a model number it's safe. (model #'s started in 1957)

Besides all that, current +P commercial ammo is no more "powerful" than the standard ammo produced when those revolvers were being used.
BUT!!
None of this really matters since the Hodgdon Load Data Site has data telling us your load of 5.0gr W231 under that 110gr bullet isn't even near the Max charge for a standard pressure .38 Special load. They list the Max at 5.5gr W231 and that charge is generating only 16,300 CUP, hardly something that can be called warm let alone hot.

 

[Rob1109]

Buffalo Bore makes a 150gr. FULL wadcutter with a sharp shoulder. Reading their info it makes good sense for non +P revolvers. Check their site.

 

[Ironhand]

Buffalo Bore makes a 150gr. FULL wadcutter with a sharp shoulder. Reading their info it makes good sense for non +P revolvers. Check their site.

Been looking at it, too.

 

[Heckenschuss]

I tested the load. My snub nose had a two hand 5 shot group of 6 inches at 30 feet. There was no primer bulging, and the spent brass had no binding and was easy to extract. Recoil was on the light side of medium. I also consider a 230 grain factory .45 ACP load in an H&K USP Tactical to be on light side of medium, and the same load in a 1911 to be on the heavy side of medium. Many thanks to those who provided input. I'm glad to know that this old steel beauty can handle the +P even though S&W says no. I'm trying to switch from Pb to Cu for anything I kill to protect raptors from lead poinoning. The .38 is for ending the misery of a dying deer I shot with my bow. We eat everything I kill. Lead and raptors is an interesting topic...

 

[Texas Star]

I tested the load. My snub nose had a two hand 5 shot group of 6 inches at 30 feet. There was no primer bulging, and the spent brass had no binding and was easy to extract. Recoil was on the light side of medium. I also consider a 230 grain factory .45 ACP load in an H&K USP Tactical to be on light side of medium, and the same load in a 1911 to be on the heavy side of medium. Many thanks to those who provided input. I'm glad to know that this old steel beauty can handle the +P even though S&W says no. I'm trying to switch from Pb to Cu for anything I kill to protect raptors from lead poinoning. The .38 is for ending the misery of a dying deer I shot with my bow. We eat everything I kill. Lead and raptors is an interesting topic...

Often, it is illegal to shoot raptors, assuming that you refer to predatory birds, not the raptor dinosaurs of the Jurassic Park movies and the TV show, "The Lost World."

If you pick up animals you shoot, I don't see how they contribute to secondary lead poisoning for scavenging raptors? Those would usually be buzzards and vultures, anyway, not hawks, eagles, and ospreys, or owls.

Also, please explain "Pb" and "Cu". Those terms got right past me.

BTW, I have a very lifelike statue of a Peregrine falcon on my desk. It causes many visitors to ask it is real. They keep looking for it to move! A Norwegian wildlife sculptor asked me for photos of it to help her sculpt one.

 

[Heckenschuss]

Copper and Lead

Deer shot in the Grand Canyon and field dressed were found to be contributing to the death of raptors/vultures. It turned out that lead from the bullet in some way got into the intestines - a dear shot in the heart had lead in the intestines. When hunters switched to copper bullets, the birds stopped dying. There was a National Geographic program on that. At times I field dress a deer and want to save the liver, so I don't want lead in anything, especially considering that the only red meat we eat is deer. Pb is the chemical symbol for lead, and Cu is the chemical symbol for copper. I was too lazy to type out the whole word so I used the chemical symbols.

Another reason for the .38 is that it easily fits into my bee suit. I'm also a beekeeper, and I got a bulletin last year that lone male black bears were attacking beekeepers. I also found bear poop on my farm. I'm not keen meeting or landing a bear, but I eat what I kill (except crow), and I'd like to keep the lead out. I've been exposed to who knows what chemicals for over 40 years, so less is better for this old goat.

 

[PeterCartwright]

Deer shot in the Grand Canyon and field dressed were found to be contributing to the death of raptors/vultures. It turned out that lead from the bullet in some way got into the intestines - a dear shot in the heart had lead in the intestines. When hunters switched to copper bullets, the birds stopped dying. There was a National Geographic program on that. At times I field dress a deer and want to save the liver, so I don't want lead in anything, especially considering that the only red meat we eat is deer. Pb is the chemical symbol for lead, and Cu is the chemical symbol for copper. I was too lazy to type out the whole word so I used the chemical symbols.

Another reason for the .38 is that it easily fits into my bee suit. I'm also a beekeeper, and I got a bulletin last year that lone male black bears were attacking beekeepers. I also found bear poop on my farm. I'm not keen meeting or landing a bear, but I eat what I kill (except crow), and I'd like to keep the lead out. I've been exposed to who knows what chemicals for over 40 years, so less is better for this old goat.

Color me a skeptic on the lead scare. I could see an issue from eating tissue immediately around an impact site--especially if there was bullet fragmentation (as there often is with common cup/core bullets and rifle velocities). And I can appreciate the issue of water fowl ingesting lead pellets from foraging-or, I suppose, raptors from scavenging. But humans have been killing and eating animals with lead projectiles for hundreds of years without apparent ill effects. Folks settled on lead for projectiles because it works so well.

My general skepticism about the lead scare becomes specific when the National Geographic organization is concerned. I've been watching their (beautifully produced!) broadcast media for a while. The organization certainly brings its own agenda to its "research", which, of course, is their right. But let the "buyer beware".

PC

 

[Heckenschuss]

Birds appear to be a warning for man. The canary in the coal mine, falcons and eagles and pesticides. I've been in factory and laboratory automation for 40 years, and I know companies lie. The tetra ethyl lead put in gas to raise octane rating was initially said to be safe. Asbestos was claimed to be safe. Lead paint pigments were claimed to be safe. The media created phony “scares” to sell papers and magazines and adds. It is hard to trust industry and the media. I don't believe anything I hear and only half of what I see.

Our exposure to heavy metals has significantly increased since lead bullets were first introduced. Birds are more sensitive to poisons than people, and many poisons build up in the body. We also live longer than birds, so there is a greater chance for low levels (parts per billion) to build up. My choice is to play it safe.

 

[S.B.]

Without knowing exactly what the cpu is, no one can really say if it is safe or not.

My personal opinion is that in an old Chief's Special you would be better served with a 158 grain Buffalo Bore NON +P LSWCHP. That load is standard pressure, will give you 860 ft./second out of a 2" barrel, and is actually a LOT faster and MORE potent than the +P loading's from the Big 3 Co's. They will also shoot POI=POI unlike 110 grainer's.
Regards,
Chief38

cheif38, I personally dislike the copper units measure of pressure, I must prefer the psi way. Easier for me to understand. I'm a dummy.
Steve

 

[SixGunHunter]

Not sure what State you live in, but here in New Hampshire, If I pull my .38 and shoot a deer to end the misery after a arrow I will be paying the ultimate price with NH F&G!
I Must have a Conceal permit just to carry a handgun while Bow Hunting.
As for a Bee Keeper, I would carry something much much Bigger than a .38 against any Black Bear regardless of size. You already know this.

Kudo's on no-lead. I am also looking into it.

 

[geoff40]

Not sure what State you live in, but here in New Hampshire, If I pull my .38 and shoot a deer to end the misery after a arrow I will be paying the ultimate price with NH F&G!
I Must have a Conceal permit just to carry a handgun while Bow Hunting.
As for a Bee Keeper, I would carry something much much Bigger than a .38 against any Black Bear regardless of size. You already know this.

Kudo's on no-lead. I am also looking into it.

And, if a Warden asks why you have a .38 Special on you during bow season, you best be telling him that it is for self defense.

 

[photoman]

Back to the topic at hand...

That load is not very hot and I would not worry about using it in my old J frames. The Barnes copper bullets are an excellent design. I've found them to be very accurate and they exhibit excellent expansion at the proper velocities.

 

[poordevil]

I remember reading Jeff Cooper many...many years ago where he advocated a certain grain weight (can't remember just how much ) of Red Dot and/ or Green Dot powder in a J frame and a 158 grn lead bullet for 1000 fps. Elmer Keith also stated the the J frame could handle a powerful load as the cylinder cuts were in the meat of the cylinder and not in line with the charge holes.

Any Smith and Wesson revolver will handle any sane and some not so sane loads. It is smart to be careful, but I think the gun press and old wives tales have made too many people fearful, and believing the guns can't stand up to much shooting.