Musings on the M1 carbine

[Faulkner]

I find it interesting that there are those who bemoan the “wimpy” M1 carbine and it’s .30 caliber carbine round while at the same time they extol the destructive power of the M1911 and it’s “flying ashtray” .45 ACP round. I took a WWII vintage M1 carbine and M1911A1 out to the range today for some steel target plinking and wondered how many people have had the opportunity to shoot a M1 carbine and M1911 at the same setting, because those that have would know that the .45 ACP is a fine handgun round, but considering the .30 caliber carbine round “wimpy” would only be relevant when it’s compared to the .30-06 round fired by its protégée of the period, the M1 rifle.

As history teaches us, in the late 1930s, the Ordnance Department began the search for a light carbine-type long arm for combat support troops, officers and non-commissioned officers as a substitute for the Model 1911A1 pistol. The Army felt that such a rifle would prove easier for the troops to shoot far more accurately than the pistol. As it turned out, many soldiers to whom .45 pistols were issued refused to give them up and demanded they also be issued the new M1 carbine.

I’m not going to pull out all the ballistic charts and compare power factors and such because I can tell you by the response of the steel targets I was shooting today the .30 caliber carbine round is no wimp when used for its intended purpose. Certainly, the .30 carbine is no .30-06, but a .30-06 would come up short when compared to a .50 BMG round too. But compared to the M1911 in .45 ACP, the M1 carbine is more accurate, has longer effective range, has larger magazine capacity, and can be argued it’s much easier to shoot.

I have personally fired a M1 carbine at a level IIA ballistic vest hanging over a ¼ inch sheet of plywood. At 25 yards the FMJ round penetrated the front panel, the plywood, and the back panel. Using expanding bullets for the same test the round lodged in the back panel. Now, I’ve heard the lore that has been repeated from the Korean War about the .30 caliber carbine round not penetrating frozen Chinese winter coats. I wasn’t there so I don’t know and I wouldn’t contradict those veterans who say it’s so, but it does make me wonder if the M1 carbine was being used tactically on the battlefield, shooting at ranges as though it was a M1 rifle that far exceeded the effective range of the M1 carbine.

So, with ballistic performance which exceeds that of a .357 magnum from a 16 inch barrel lever gun, I have deduced that the M1 carbine is certainly no power house firearm, but “wimpy” just don’t fit the bill either.

 

[Xfuzz]

Two of my all time favorite guns.
Back in 1972 when I graduated the police academy
one of the first places the oldtimers would take us was
to a local "dealer" that sold surplus M1's ....your pick.
$75.00

 

[mkk41]

Why did the M1 Carbines .30cal , 110gr FMJ-RN at 2200fps get a rep for bouncing of Chinese overcoats , but the PPSHs .30cal , 86gr FMJ-RN at 1600fps get a rep for incredible penetration?

 

[ogilvyspecial]

I don't have any "real world" experience with the M1 Carbine, but a close friend used one,
off & on for a few years, in Vietnam. After he left the U.S. Army (5th SF) he
"freelanced" and while doing so used a lot of different firearms around the world.

Till the day he died, the M1 / M2 Carbine was one of his all time favorites.

Here he is in Vietnam with The Carbine, doing, and I quote, almost everything wrong.
Smoking in the open at night (not using his hat with the hole in the top), and the flash.
About the only thing he said that he was doing right in this photo was keeping his
eyes closed, while the flash went off, in order to preserve his night vision.

 

[Texas Star]

I think it was a grave error to suppose that the carbine would replace the handgun. They simply don't fill the same tactical or emotional roles.

Roger Hall said in, "You're Stepping On My Cloak and Dagger" that he thought the carbine a good arm for small guerilla forces such as he led in occupied France as an OSS agent. He thought ti ws good to 300 yards.

Brevet Brig. John Masters, D.S.O. carried one in Burma, and seemed satisfied, but I don't know if he personally shot any Japanese with his. I think his boss, Sir William Slim, Viscount Slim of Burma, also had one. But generals seldom fight!

Audie Murphy, MH, said in his book that he thought he could wipe out several Germans with a quick burst of semi-auto fire, in an enclosed space. The Germans were clumped together. I think he killed several hundred men, so respect his opinion.

Personally, I was not too impressed with the carbine in USAF service. I was glad to see the AR-15 arrive.

 

[Comrad]

We can't have them in NJ because of the dreaded letters stamped on the receiver "M1" but the good news is if we can get one without those evil letters everything is hunky dory.
What an effective and useful assault weapon law. lol

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Since this thread is called "musings" on the M1 carbine, here's some.

My friend, Pat, shown in my previous post, showed me some photos taken back in
Vietnam and in one about four or five of his CIDG, or Mike Force Strikers,
I can't remember which, were crossing a deep, water filled ditch/stream.

Of the troops shown in the photo, all were carrying carbines except one, who had a BAR.

Pat asked me why I thought that particular guy was carrying the BAR? I didn't have a clue....

He said, look close, he's the smallest guy and the bigger guys didn't want to carry the BAR.
Basically the correct answer was. The bigger guys made him carry it."

Pat said that, in addition to the heavier weight of the BAR and it's ammo, in combat it drew
fire like a magnet. He said that as soon as the BAR would open up you could see
the enemies fire seem to concentrate on the loud, distinctive sound it made.

 

[Grayfox]

Ah, the M1 Carbine! One of my absolute favorite rifles.

Its shorter and lighter than a AR, combat accurate out to 150 yards, almost no recoil, and its .30 caliber! Its my first choice as a close defense rifle.

I have two of them. Here's my Inland along with a few of its WW II buddies.

And here's my Standard Products rifle with a few minor adjustments.

I have no idea why this picture uploaded sideways and I can't get the edit function at Photobucket to work.

 

[kraigwy]

My father was in the 41st Inf Div in the SP (Burma) during WWII and in Korea. He carried the M1 Carbine (by choice) saying it was a much better jungle weapon then the M1. He also killed a water buffalo with one.

I really enjoy my (CMP) Carbine. I do shoot it side by side with my 1911. I've shot Multi gun matches using the Carbine and USGI 1911a1. Didn't win, but had fun.

As a side note, not to be out done by my father, I killed a water buffalo in Vietnam with my M16a1.

I think for jungle warfare the M1 Carbine would be hard to beat. As a short range it would be a good deer rifle up to 200 yards using 110 Grn soft points.

Mine is pretty accurate and cheap to shoot using 90 grn round nose cast bullets.

 

[GLV]

If you get away from

MBRs, and ARs, the M-1 carbine is the best. Light, and easy to carry, accurate, 30 rounds with proper mag release, reliable, and low recoil. In my early 80s, all of the above are important.

 

[Rule3]

Box of Truth did a test on the frozen Korean coat.(simulated) The 30 Cal penetrated just fine

A 110 JRN bullet going over 2000 fps is moving right along.

The Box O' Truth #36 - Frozen Clothing And The Box O' Truth - Page 1

 

[JGR_LV]

I was given an M1 carbine a couple of years ago, and I've shot it a bit, but wouldn't call myself an expert. This one supposedly came back from Iwo Jima with a Navy diver. I have no clue what he was doing with it, but, as Buck later owned the Golden Nugget here in Vegas, I suspect the story involved an unwary Marine and a poker game.

I can tell you that, with decent 15-round magazines, it's reliable, but not impressively accurate, even at moderate range. 300 yards is probably wishful thinking, although I suppose you could get lucky.

Recoil is minimal, and I'd guess that a 90-day wonder could reach an acceptable level of proficiency with one much faster than with a 1911. I've been shooting a 1911 for several decades, and I'm still working on that. I'd very much prefer to avoid getting shot with either, but if it came to that, I think I'd rather get hit with the carbine.

Regarding the BAR, a friend carried one in Vietnam, and I think I can shed some light on the "little guy always gets the BAR" issue. He's a bit below average height, and he told me the reason the BAR was usually given to the shorter Marines was that the short bipod on the BAR makes it hard for taller people to get down behind it when using the bipod. He also said that he didn't mind carrying it. It was somewhat heavier than a Garand or M14, but the balance and sling configuration actually made it easier to carry than either of those. Other squad members were usually more than happy to carry a few extra magazines for him, too, if it meant he could keep shooting longer.

 

[Wyo]

Seems like I recall Jim Cirillo said he used one while he was on the NYC stakeout squad and always had very satisfactory results with it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that.

John Farnam's wife, Vicki, favors the M1 Carbine over virtually everything else, and she has access to just about every type of rifle out there today. She killed a charging wild pig that weighed just about 400 lbs. with one two years ago. She was shooting Cor Bon DPX ammo and hit him just near the eye at about 20 feet. Stoned him dead right there! I suppose you might have gotten similar results with many rifles given similar shot placement, but she was most pleased! She absolutely swears by that little rifle!

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I've long thought the M-1 carbine to be a highly under-rated weapon. I've got an old Inland that I am very fond of. As pointed out earlier, it has almost no recoil, is fast handling and is much easier to shoot accurately than a handgun. Because of injuries and arthritis, I can no longer shoot a 1911 type handgun without my wrist unlocking causing "limp wristing". I can easily fire the M-1 carbine without any problems. I've tried to talk my 15 yr. old son in trying it out without success. Recently, I finally talked him into shooting my Marlin lever gun chambered in .357 Magnum (I had 158 gr. LSWC in a .38 Special loading) and he really enjoyed it. Hopefully, this will mean I'll have somebody that appreciates the M-1 carbine that I can hand mine down to.

Regards,

Dave

 

[therevjay]

Why did the M1 Carbines .30cal , 110gr FMJ-RN at 2200fps get a rep for bouncing of Chinese overcoats , but the PPSHs .30cal , 86gr FMJ-RN at 1600fps get a rep for incredible penetration?[/QUOTE

The Korean war was a bit before my time. But I asked a ol'timer I know at the local pub who served at that time about the lack of penetration.

He told me he thought the reason the .30 carbine rd. didn't penetrate Chinese overcoats is that it wasn't hitting them.

 

[J. W.]

I've got a Winchester GI M1 Carbine. My has one of the civilian versions made by Universal. As a young boy, the Carbine was my favorite rifle. (and still remains a prized part of my collection)

Just recently a 3rd cousin of mine passed away. He served in the South Pacific during WWII, New Guinea and the Philippines in particular. He held the M1 Carbine in high regards and spoke of its effectiveness in close combat.

I think part of the reason the .30 Carbine gained a rep as a poor stopper is he to its high velocity, light, none expanding bullet. Such a cartridge requires more careful shot placement that its .30-06 counterpart of the day.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

 

[Bat Guano]

In its original role--substituting/replacing the pistol--the carbine wasn't a half bad idea. As a "rifle" it was better than nothing. Where it really shined was in creating the impression that you were adequately armed and in being very easy to carry. I spent many a long day or even longer night with one slung over my shoulder. When it came to reliability and accuracy it left a lot to be desired. My later experiences with a personally owned one were the same.

I glass bedded that carbine (quite a chore!) and had a master class shooter shoot it with GI ball ammo. Now maybe a new barrel would have been in order, but they were hard to find those days and I sent the gun down the road.

Full disclosure: I've never been a big fan of the carbine; when the old DCM was selling them for $20 back in the early 60s I passed on the opportunity. Now I wish I had grabbed one of those and every other one around to sell them 40 years later!

 

[ACP230]

I shot a couple of NRA High Power Rifle matches with an M1 Carbine back in the day. Guys with M1 rifles would shoot and the slap of the bullet hitting the target board at 200 yards would be heard right then.
I'd shoot and there'd be a pause and then the carbine bullet would hit the board. Everybody, including me, was amused by that. The cases would leave the action, fly up, and land in the middle of my back.
Also amusing.

All the bullets went through the target point first and I didn't do a lot
worse with the Carbine than I did with an M1, or the 1917 Enfield I used before that.

Also knew a guy who killed two does with a Ruger Blackhawk in .30
Carbine. If I remember right one was at 90 and one was at 110 yards.
Too far for me with a load that light but he got both of them and without a lot of trailing.

I don't discount the Carbine.

 

[gregintenn]

I have been blessed to have never been in combat, but the M1 Carbines are always a big hit with my friends and family for plinking in the back yard. I can think of very few instances where I'd feel undergunned with one and a few 30 round mags.

It sure would beat lugging around a big ole heavy Garand.

 

[mjr]

I've posted this before...

...but it's been a few years.

I found this among my father's WWII photos and memorabilia. The photo was probably taken in or near Florance, Italy, after the Germans had been driven out. The man with the carbine was one Captain George Stocking. He and my dad served together in North Africa and Italy. Captain Stocking had to have been using FMJ ball ammo--what else was there?