Muzzle Energy or Velocity for amor piercing rounds

[george8680]

I bought a Smith and Wesson J frame 357. Super tiny, weighs less than two pound. It's for self defense in the event I am at an event and there is a terrorist attack.

My question is, what type of ammo would be best to pierce armor? Bullets with more Muzzle Energy, or with more velocity?

I came across Liberty's 357 ammo which looks very atypical when it comes to 357 rounds (see below) . The grain is low, the MV is very high and the ME is very low. Is this the type of ammo I need, or is something with much higher ME and higher weighted (more grains) what I am looking for. Please let me know thanks!
Grain Weight 50 Grains
Muzzle Velocity 2100 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy 490 Foot Pounds

 

[scooter123]

I suspect your post will stir up a big can of wriggling fat worms, so get your fishing gear ready.

FYI, it is illegal for a private individual to own, fabricate, or possess true armor piercing ammunition. In addition with the low muzzle velocities produced by a 1 7/8 inch long barrel even a turn military grade armor piercing round will prove to be pretty much useless. IMO your best choice for personal protection with your new J frame would be the Speer 135 grain short barrel Gold Dot load. It won't do much against body armor but to be honest only a Rifle will prove effective against modern body armor.

 

[Arik]

That short barrel isn't going to produce enough energy. A true armor piercing bullet is made of different material and isn't available to the public.

AP ammo is different from hollow points. It doesn't expand. And you will have legal problems if you​actually use it on someone. Not just because you have it but also there is a huge risk of over penetration which could result in multiple people getting hurt

When you're looking at bullet performance (speed/energy) you have too look at what the test barrel was. A longer barrel produces more speed and energy because it allows more powder to be burned. Typically test barrels are at least 4 inches, sometimes they can be a lot longer.
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[SAFireman]

Skip the fancy ammo. Learn the Mozambique drill.

To possess armor piercing handgun ammo is a Federal offense (unless you are LEO of some sort).

 

[Ray1970]

As others have mentioned, AP handgun ammunition is illegal and/or unavailable.

Also, if your intended purpose is to protect yourself in a terrorist attack like you said, the J-frame would be a horrible choice. Plus, most likely any attack of that type will likely involve some sort of explosive device or maybe a very large truck. I doubt any handgun will keep you safe.

 

[MichiganScott]

I suspect a bridge has lost it's troll.

 

[colt_saa]

I bought a Smith and Wesson J frame 357. Super tiny, weighs less than two pound. It's for self defense in the event I am at an event and there is a terrorist attack.

My question is, what type of ammo would be best to pierce armor? Bullets with more Muzzle Energy, or with more velocity?

I came across Liberty's 357 ammo which looks very atypical when it comes to 357 rounds (see below) . The grain is low, the MV is very high and the ME is very low. Is this the type of ammo I need, or is something with much higher ME and higher weighted (more grains) what I am looking for. Please let me know thanks!
Grain Weight 50 Grains
Muzzle Velocity 2100 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy 490 Foot Pounds

Welcome to the Forum

There is no handgun ammunition that will reliably penetrate modern body armor. Not even LEO ammo

If you have a terrorist wearing body armor coming at you, your best bet is to shoot him with a rifle at a distance and NOT let him get withing suicide bombing distance of you.

If you have no rifle, then you want Muzzle Energy from your firearm. It will not penetrate the vest, but a centered chest hit will knock the wind out of him and give you the chance to run away.

I can tell you from personal experience that a 12 gauge slug will not penetrate a vest, but it will give the wearer of the body armor a moment of shock and create an awesome bruise and possibly fracture a rib or two.

 

[dusty3030]

1. Purchase one of these:
Vickers Slings | AR-15 Slings | AR Slings | AK Slings

2. Purchase one of these:
Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC > Catalog > Rifles > LE6920 Series

3. Purchase one of these:
El Paso Saddlery Dual Duty 3 Slot Outside the Waistband Holster Right

Load #2 with this:
IMI Ammo 5.56x45mm NATO 62 Grain M855 SS109 Penetrator Full Metal

Load your J frame with ammo of your choice (the aforementioned Speer 135gr short barrel load is an excellent choice).

Place #3 on your belt. Insert J frame into #3.

Attach #1 to #2 and place over your shoulder.

This is best option for defeating armor while carrying your J frame.

 

[george8680]

Thanks guys!
Not a troll, in fact I am a member of the National Guard.

 

[george8680]

Also check this out
Liberty Civil Defense 9mm and Body Armor - YouTube

 

[old tanker]

M903 Caliber .50 Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP)

Used by M2HB machine gun. The SLAP is used in combat against current and future light armored targets and Armored Attack Helicopters (AAHs). The M903 offers the capability to defeat these targets at ranges two to three times that of currently available ammunition.

Armor Penetration.
500 meters: 1.34 in (34 mm)
1,200 meters: 0.91 in (23 mm)

Projectile diameter: 0.30 inches (7.7 mm)

The cartridge consists of a heavy metal (tungsten) penetrator that is sabot-launched at a much higher velocity than standard rounds. The sabot, which is designed to break up at the muzzle to release the penetrator, must also survive the gun environment until launch. It is injection molded of special high strength plastic and is reinforced with an aluminum insert in the base section. The cartridge is identified by an amber sabot (Ultem 1000).

Type Classification: STD. Type Classification Date: 31-MAR-1993
Unit cost: $8.87 (Fiscal Year 2005)

 

[murphydog]

I think your (my, anyone's) chances of encountering an armored assailant are vanishingly small, North Hollywood bank robbers notwithstanding. You will tilt the odds toward you by:

1. Situational awareness (trying to avoid bad areas near you and watching your surroundings at all times).
2. Having your .357 on you at all times and becoming very proficient with it. You may find another gun will be easier to shoot, if not carry.
3. Knowing the laws regarding using it, and likely legal representation or insurance coverage on call.

With these steps, you are unlikely to need to use (let alone draw) your gun but will be as prepared as possible. Good luck in your decisions.

 

[reddog81]

Ignoring the fact that such a scenario registers improbably low on the already very small probability of ever needing to use your gun...

I'd take any 125 or 158 jacketed hollow point over that gimmicky ammo. Even if it doesn't penetrate the vest it will put some serious hurt onto what ever is behind the vest.

 

[GeoJelly]

george is another George - so he must be OK! I hope I can add a tiny bit to what other's have stated here! From what I have seen on the news, I don't think you have to be concerned about a modern-day terrorist attacking you in such a manner that you will have a clear shot at him or her. I'm afraid they don't operate that way, they would much rather operate from a distance, as in an IED, or simply mix in with the crowd and detonate their explosive charge.

Edited to add: I think the SS109 would be a grand idea - you might want to get some while it's still (I think) available...

 

[DWalt]

The M855 "green bullet" 5.56 ammo is specifically excluded from the definition of being an AP round. I don't think that has changed yet. But there have been attempts to ban the M855 for civilian use. Back close to 40-50 years ago, there was a handgun round called the KTW on the market which was sold as armor piercing, and it created quite a stir among LE and the anti-gun crowd as it was fairly effective in that role. Of course it was always described as being the "Cop-Killer Bullet" despite the fact that no cops were ever killed with it. There were several different variations of the KTW bullet, but it was generally jacketed solid metal - first, a tungsten alloy coated with Teflon, and later, brass. Those KTW cartridges are collector items now. It is not illegal to own AP ammo (at least in most places). You just cannot buy it as it is restricted to LE sale only.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Allow me to correct a few myths about AP ammo.
Depending on individual state laws, it is not necessarily illegal to purchase, sell or possess AP handgun ammo (i.e.: KTW, Arcane, THV, American Ballistics, WWII German iron core/sintered iron, 1950's Czech steel core etc.). It is a federal crime to commit a crime while in possession of handgun AP ammo. It is illegal for retailers to sell AP ammo to the general public. It is illegal to import into the country or manufacturer AP ammo without a permit.

Some of Liberty Ammunition's HALO/Civil Defense rounds have been tested and can penetrate certain levels of soft body armor but since the bullet is not made of certain forbidden metals and was not designed as a AP round, it is not and cannot be classified as AP.

 

[george8680]

Okay, one more post from me on this topic and it's a side-bar...

LeHigh's extreme penetrator.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFwr2ycgXk[/ame]

9mm ammo that's designed to penetrate. Gimmick, or what I am looking for?

 

[Arik]

I would drop the idea of the AP ammo and still k with know performers. That liberty defense may penetrate a plate but without the plate it fragments when what you want is the bullet to retain it's weight. It may enter is a 50gr but by the time it gets to 12 inches it's only 10gr. On top of that what happens when your AP round doesn't find an armour vest? It doesn't stop at one person!

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[reddog81]

Expensive gimmick. When would you need 30" of penetration? It's funny how he mentions the typical "hollows points can plug and not preform" routine. If a hollow point fails to expand it just acts like a regular jacketed bullet... It doesn't just stop in in tracks because it doesn't expand.

If you want a good comparison google "9mm ammo test". The first hit should be from Luckygunner. They have comparison data from dozens of different rounds.

 

[rburg]

One of our posters had a sig line that there will be many statements about the law. Some will be spectacularly wrong. That fits here.

You've got all kinds of overlapping laws, Federal, State, and sometimes local. I live in a state with some of the least restrictive laws around. But we do have a law against owning AP handgun ammo. I also see it all the time at gun shows. Guess the cops that swarm the places don't know or don't care. I pretty much agree with the above posters who suggest that it isn't the best choice anyway. It could be the OP here is a troll, or unfamiliar with the thoughts on ammo.

The ultra light 357s are almost as brutal on the rear as on the front. The only salvation is that under stress, you won't feel the bruising until later if you're the shooter and not the bruisee.

Jeff Cooper was once asked how to avoid being the victim of violence. His response was "stay home". Then he went on to suggest being home at night, particularly the wee hours. And don't go where underage or young adults drink alcohol. If you enjoy going places to celebrate or party, you assume some risk. Taking along your own gun just makes you a criminal, too.