My first ever double......it is foxy

[DWalt]

That's not an indication of chamber length. The chamber length accommodates a fired shell with the crimp open. Measure a 2-3/4" loaded 20 gauge shell and you'll see it's only 2-1/4" long. I was thinking 16 Ga when I mentioned 2-9/16". I think early 20 gauge guns had 2-1/2" chambers.

If the crimp opens into the forcing cone, you're basically swaging the shot cup and shot through the end of the hull. It pushes the pressure up. Think of it as a proof load. I saw a lovely 20 Ga L.C. Smith with a cracked stock from shooting a box of the wrong shells.

If your Special has short chambers (made for paper shells), you can always buy these: 20 Gauge

That is total fiction, and has been repeated so often most everyone thinks it's the truth. There is no problem in using 2-3/4" shells in a 2-1/2" chamber, which is what many early 20 gauge shotguns had. Can anyone actually believe that a tenth of an inch of thin plastic case mouth length could constitute a bore obstruction which raises pressure? Ridiculous!!! At one time I had a conversation with the head ballistician at Federal, he said their tests showed no change in chamber pressure in firing the 2-3/4" loads in a 2-1/2" chamber.

I have a very early (1913) Winchester Model 1912 in 20 gauge (the Model 1912 was initially offered only in 20 Gauge). It has a 2-1/2" chamber, and I have always used 2-3/4" shells. The real problem with the Model 1912 is that the ejection port is a little short for 2-3/4" Federal plastic shells - the fired cases are about 2.72". And they will not eject. Remington and Winchester plastic cases are slightly shorter (at about 2.6") and they eject OK, just enough room to clear the port . So I use only Winchester or Remington cases.

 

[weatherby]

If you haven't gone there you gotta go to AH Fox Collectors Association. Some great info there. Great find!

Thanks for the tip and yes I have gone there.
Learned a bit too.
Part of the reason I had my dealer stick it in the closet for me....lol

 

[bigmoose]

The Fox action is one of the simplest and most reliable of the old American doubles. Their single trigger was also highly rated. Can’t say that about most of the others of that era.
Very nice gun Paul, and well optioned. Congrats.

 

[H Richard]

Paul, you out did yourself with that one. I'm thinking that had to be custom ordered wood. Beautiful. If you normally don't shoot doubles they take a few shot to get used to. Take it to the skeet field a couple times. I have a Ugartechea 12 with double triggers, and I always have a relearning time each time I shoot it, but there is something special about shooting doubles.

 

[s&wchad]

That is total fiction, and has been repeated so often most everyone thinks it's the truth. There is no problem in using 2-3/4" shells in a 2-1/2" chamber, which is what many early 20 gauge shotguns had.

Do you have a source to back up your opinion?

This is worth reading: https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-100.pdf

The unfired shotgun shell is considerably shorter than the chamber length. For example, the modern star crimped 20 gauge 23⁄4" shell is 2.44" in length when loaded. When fired, the crimped end unfolds and the shell is then 2.75" in length. This usually matches the chamber length of 2.75". Therefore, the end of the fired shell case stops where the forcing cone begins tapering the chamber diameter down to the smaller bore diameter. An unfired 20 gauge 3" shell measures 2.68" in length, which allows it to easily enter the 20 gauge 23⁄4" chamber (2.75"). However, when the 3" shell is fired, the case unfolds to its full 3" length. The extra .25" of case body enters the forcing cone creating a “bottle neck” effect through which the shot and wads must pass.

The amount and type of powder loaded in a shell is carefully selected to provide the correct burning rate which provides the pressure necessary to overcome the inertia of the shot: push it and the wads through the forcing cone, up the bore and through the choke. This balance is absolutely essential for good patterns and the overall correct function of the shotgun. Any time part of the fired shotgun case enters the forcing cone and creates the “bottle neck” effect, the balance is changed and several detrimental effects occur. First, the momentary slowing of the shot charge by the “bottle neck” increases the rate of burning of the powder which results in increased chamber pressure. In some cases, it is about the same as firing a proof load shell. This excess pressure not only puts a strain on the gun’s mechanism and barrel, but also increases the amount of recoil. Provided the mechanism is capable of safely withstanding the 10% to 25% increase in chamber pressure, the gun will slowly, but surely, be battered to pieces.

 

[THEmodelof1989]

My beagle once turned and gave me a funny look after running the rabbit right by me.
Not my fault he didn't understand I only brought a handful of shells and already limited out.

Reminds me of a time when I used to dip snuff and a volley of ducks came over decoys on a flyby when my hands where in the cookie jar. The dog looked at me, then let out a half sneeze that sounded more like a scoff.... I quit dipping for both of us.

 

[2152hq]

The earlier (Philadelphia mfgr) AH Fox (I'm nor sure of the Savage mfg guns made in Utica), had their chambers usually cut shorter than the 'spec' of today.
12ga chamber length back then was 2 5/8.
16ga ws 2 9/16"
20 was 2 1/2"

Many other mfg's used the same lengths. They also varied somewhat. IIRC AH Fox also cut theirs a bit Short of this spec at that time as it produced better patterns.
I believe Remington may have also.

If you wish to shoot these vintage guns you have to remember that they are just that.
Also on a Fox,,the bbls came in 4 different 'weights',,#'d 1 thru 4. The bbl weight numbers can often still be seen on the bottom of each tube just forward of the bbl flats.
#1 was the heaviest,,#4 the light weight.

What it all meant was bbl steel removed from the outside to lower the weight of the tube(s). There is a table that provided the specs that the different gauge/lengths of the different weight bbl sets were supposed to be within. Customers could choose the bbl set weight and get a heavier or lighter gun that way.

A #3 or #4 bbl is much thinner especially up at the chamber end and just forward of it than a #2 or #1.
This has to be kept in mind not only when (re) loading for these but also when the thought of altering one is considered such as lengthening the chamber out to 2 3/4" and/or lengthening the forcing cone.

The latter sometimes is the only operation done, the chamber length left as-is.
The thought being that a long gradual taper relieves the old short abrupt forcing cone and it's perceived issue of boosting pressures using modern length ammo in a 'short chamber.
Some modern cut 'long forcing cones' are Very Long',, 2 and 3 inches in length. Some are cut more to remove old pitting and make a nice shiny bore than to improve anything.
I often wonder when I see one of these how much measuring was done to see what would be left of the wall thickness before the work proceeded.
I've seen wall thicknesses taken down to single .000's. Burst bbls that look like a piece of paper in thickness.

The barrel wall thickness you're working with and the amt you are reducing it to get the above result may not be worth the end result safety wise. It takes some precise measurements and knowledge before running a couple reamers in there and calling it good.

At times the best way is to leave the gun just as it is and use 'short shells' Either reload them yourself which is not difficult at all. Or buy them by the flat from someplace like RST.

Undisturbed chambers and forcing cones especially in vintage SxS's keep the value of the shotgun in tact.
Way more than alterations do that might make a 'shooter' out of it.
On an English made vintage gun,,any bbl alteration is near life w/o parole from the SxS community as the gun is now 'Out of Proof' .
You'll be chased from the village by angry crowds of damascus bbl toting hoodlums.

Yes many of the short chambers guns have gobbled up plenty of modern 2 3/4 loads over the years, and will continue to do so.
The 'If it Fits, shoot it' school is alive and well all over.
357's in a 38spl,,if it fits
3" 12ga in a 2 3/4" chamber. They fit and go off just fine. The 3" shell is 2 3/4" iin length loaded. Why wouldn't it 'fit' in a 2 3/4" chamber. It's where that extra length has to go when it's fired.

Some guns can take it,,most guns can I suspect.
But why do that when proper ammo of correct length and proper chamber PSI for the era of the gun when it was built is available.

 

[crsides]

I'm with S&WChad and 2152 on this one. Buy you some 2 1/2" shells or have the chambers lengthened. Don't bust that beautiful stock.

 

[weatherby]

Charlie I will definitely try putting a fired 2 3/4" in before firing.
I see no reason to risk....even if remotely any damage.

 

[weatherby]

John love your posts and the detail you put into them. I appreciate it Sir.

I'm waiting for the "card" on it.

The barrels can be read....pretty easily in this case. Rest assured it will be well taken care of on my watch.