My old PD, now on the 9mm bandwagon....

[Old Corp]

Funny, I have no dog in the fight - been retired since 2008, and moved away to far less urban environs. But, do still keep up with some guys I know and worked with and some of the goings-on.

Just learned the department updated their duty weapons to, of all things a 9mm. It's the SIG P320x series, full size or compact, depending on assignment.
The young crowd is loving it and scores seem to have risen some. Duty round is the new-ish Speer Gold Dot G2 147 gr. JHP.

This replaces the S&W M&P .45 FS that was adopted very soon after I retired.
Prior to that, and what I was given on retirement was the S&W M4566. I had the CS45 for a time as a Detective, but never really cared for it.

Prior to that (c.1989-2000) we had the M1076, which worked very well until they ceased production and became very expensive to order, as well as the ammo.

Before that, when I started was a mix of Colt Trooper MKIII's, Troopers, and Border Patrol .357's, replaced shortly thereafter by S&W M66's, thank goodness.

Anyway, just never thought I'd see a 9mm in my agency's holsters.
The way things are going, it won't be long before some of them get truly field tested.

 

[Babysitr]

Well, good luck to all your friends, wish them well...having never been a LEO..I'd feel better with that .45....if I ever had to use it

 

[biku324]

The NMSP went from 357 Sig to 9mm a few years ago simply because the ammo was cheaper.

 

[safearm]

The NMSP went from 357 Sig to 9mm a few years ago simply because the ammo was cheaper.

So too did the Mississippi Highway Patrol.

 

[hittman77]

A couple years back the MO State Patrol went from G22 in 40 cal to G17 9mm. Why? No idea but obviously something happened to lead them in that direction.

 

[adwjc]

Many administrators follow blindly in the path of whatever the FBI says is the way to go. No testing or or consideration of their particular environment or specific needs.

OTOH, the FBI at least tests and shows results before they run into anything, so it is a safe path.

As mentioned above, cost is always a consideration, the bean counters always cheap it out when they can, whether it is ammo, firearms, cars, radios etc. it has always been a fight to get the best equipment.

 

[jimmyj]

I sincerely hope that the agencies that have downsized calibers to 9mm does not find out that this was not a smart move.

Jimmy will stick with a caliber that starts with a "4".

 

[Rodan]

The truth is that the real world difference in terminal performance between 9mm, .40 and .45 service calibers is minimal.

In 20+ years of LE instructing, I have yet to see anyone, novice to expert, that doesn't shoot faster and more accurately with a gun that recoils less. Better shot placement = increased effectiveness. More shots on target = increased effectiveness.

For many years, my agency was .40 or .45 only. We started authorizing 9mm about 8 years ago, but you had to buy your own. Since that time, we've seen improved performance with those that switched to 9mm voluntarily. Enough improvement that we are now transitioning all agency issued guns to 9mm (G17MOS). I have yet to see a shooter that didn't improve their performance after switching, especially from .40 to 9mm. That change was driven by encouragement from our instructor cadre... cost of guns/ammo had exactly zero influence on the decision.

From an LE instructor standpoint, I'll take improved speed and accuracy over a marginal increase in terminal performance seven days a week and twice on Sunday.

 

[biku324]

Many administrators follow blindly in the path of whatever the FBI says is the way to go. No testing or or consideration of their particular environment or specific needs.

OTOH, the FBI at least tests and shows results before they run into anything, so it is a safe path.

As mentioned above, cost is always a consideration, the bean counters always cheap it out when they can, whether it is ammo, firearms, cars, radios etc. it has always been a fight to get the best equipment.

In the late 80s/early 90s we wanted either speedloaders for our 357s or 45 autos. Of course, our Chief bought 9mms. Three inadequate shootings later, a new Chief stopped the 9mm (5906) transition and bought the same gun in 45 (4506) - end of problem AND we could use National Guard 45 ball for training.

 

[Old cop]

We transitioned to the Glock 19 sometime in the '80s (I retired in '97) w/the G26 & G17 available depending on your assignment. It was tough for me to surrender my trusty .38 but experience taught me to appreciate the new weapons ammo capacity.

 

[Echo40]

Although I don't personally subscribe to the belief that 9mm Luger is the optimal cartridge for duty/self-defense, (as if such a thing exists) nor do I share the opinion that 9mm Luger is equal to other duty cartridges with greater mass/weight/energy just because there isn't a substantial visual difference inside a block of gelatin, I do believe that the 9mm Luger is a capable duty cartridge, and it's obviously cheaper than the competition, not to mention easier to train officers of all shapes and sizes with.

.45s don't fit everyone's hands well, the greater felt recoil of .40 S&W can reduce the speed of follow up shots on certain shooters, and of course 9mm Luger has larger magazine capacity, which is a plus, especially when it comes to outfitting a police force in which not all officers are bullseye shooters.

So all in all, the 9mm Luger is perhaps the ideal cartridge for outfitting an equal opportunity police force, and it makes perfect sense why so many departments across the United States have switched over to 9mm Luger, not to mention why it has been the dominant cartridge in the Military as well as Law Enforcement across the globe for as long as it has.

Fortunately, we civilians can choose our own individual weapons, so we don't have to follow the example of Law Enforcement because we're individuals and thusly don't have to base our decisions on whether or not our peers can handle our own personal defense weapons as well as we can. So police can go right on ahead carrying 9mm Luger, I'm sure that it will serve them adequately, and ultimately I'm grateful that so many have switched to 9mm, otherwise I never would have discovered how much I enjoy the .40 S&W cartridge, since their dirt cheap trade-ins were what ultimately got me into it in the first place.

 

[sigp220.45]

The NMSP went from 357 Sig to 9mm a few years ago simply because the ammo was cheaper.

And despite all the hoo-ha about bullet effectiveness, this is why the FBI switched as well. I was there.

 

[WR Moore]

I used to belong to a LE Instructors chat board. One of the guys was lead FI on a large department near DC. When they selected a new service pistol the rank & file agitated for .40s and he went along as he didn't much care. After some time, he bitterly regretted being talked into the .40. Scores went down, wrist/hand injuries allegedly from shooting (not making this up), began accumulating. That's been years, can't recall if they swapped back to 9, he was definitely going to do it as soon as he could.

I've still got a copy of the PowerPoint the FBI did after a shooting in Pennsylvania involving FBI blessed .40 ammunition. The after action blather was how badly the .40 performed. Naturally, the FBI had to defend their test protocol. The "lack of performance" was due to the felons outstanding use of cover and the resulting peripheral .40 wounds. The incident was ended with a couple of .223 rounds that the FBI churlishly noted did not meet FBI performance standards.

I spent a couple of decades as an LE firearms instructor, I think the vast majority of folks are better off with something in the .38 Spl/9 mm recoil range. Where the bullet goes is much more important than any ammunition characteristics.

 

[18DAI]

All the Agencies in my Jurisdiction have gone to 9mm as well. Its cheaper. Thats the primary consideration. Easier to get a barely qualified applicant to shoot a passing score of 70 too. Once a year.

And based on the new hires I see appearing before me in the Magistrates office, the Agencies are recruiting in "The Shire". A few can barely see over the counter in the lock up. But I digress.

Alls it will take is one unfortunate incident where 9mm is blamed for the failure and everyone will be wringing their hands and scurrying back to larger calibers. What was that Granny use to say about those who don't recall history being doomed to repeat it?

Glad I am retired. And carrying a 45. Regards 18DAI

Edited to correct - NC SHP went to Sig P320s. But they are chambered in 357sig, not 9mm. Thanks WCCPD!

 

[Ranger514]

I have to laugh every time I read that folks complain about the snappy, harsh recoil of the .40 cal. I duty carried a .40 cal. P229 for 20 years, and as an agency firearms instructor, I shot the snot out of that Sig. I'm 5' 11", and in those days, I weighed 165 to 175 lbs. We had our choice of calibers, and others who carried the .40 never failed their Quals, or complained that the 180 gr. Hydra Shok ammo we shot hurt their wrists. The .40 is an accurate and reliable defensive caliber. Since I retired, I carry different handgun calibers for different venues, and I'm glad my old agency has aloowed its officers to continue to carry the .40 or .45.

 

[Echo40]

I used to belong to a LE Instructors chat board. One of the guys was lead FI on a large department near DC. When they selected a new service pistol the rank & file agitated for .40s and he went along as he didn't much care. After some time, he bitterly regretted being talked into the .40. Scores went down, wrist/hand injuries allegedly from shooting (not making this up), began accumulating.

Then I can only conclude that the guy telling the story was grossly exaggerating because I'm sorry, but no... Honestly, if folks want to call the .40 S&W cartridge "snappy" then okay, I can see that, and even acknowledge it out of some smaller, lighter weight pistols, but there's no way in heck that anyone who wasn't suffering from some sort of pre-existing medical condition has ever suffered hand/wrist injuries from shooting ANY .40 S&W pistol, especially not a full-size police duty pistol.

I can accept that perceptions of recoil are highly subjective, but unless it's a 100% psychosomatic, mind-over-matter situation, I don't believe that it's physically possible for any trained Law Enforcement personnel to sustain injury simply by shooting .40 S&W, and anyone who looks up the actual recoil force of .40 S&W in terms of energy foot-pounds can see that it factually isn't much higher than 9mm +P.
Seriously, look it up, felt recoil of a 115gr 9mm +P fired from a pistol that weighs 1.5lbs is 7.3ft-lbs, whereas a 165gr .40 S&W fired from a 1.5lb pistol is 9.3, that's nothing, a difference of 2ft-lbs, not nearly enough to result in physical injury.

I swear, the recoil force of .40 S&W has practically become an Urban Legend at this point with the sheer magnitude of exaggeration involved.
Worse yet, I thought .40 S&W was "Short & Wimpy" so how on earth is it simultaneously capable of causing hand/wrist injuries to Law Enforcement officers, yet is a "Short & Wimpy" cartridge? How absurd.

 

[Borderboss]

The move back to 9mm in general is likely because of cost and also because it tends to be easier to shoot for smaller men and women so they can qualify easier.

IMHO, the .40 was an answer to a non-existent question. I recall some people wanted a larger bullet than the 9mm but wanted higher capacity than the .45. At the time the .40 was dreamed up, there weren't any double stack .45s on the market besides the Para, IIRC. But the LEOs have been dumping .40s by the truck full for the past 18-24 months.

 

[Miami_JBT]

My last two agencies wemt from .40 S&W to 9mm because of price.

 

[sigp220.45]

I swear, the recoil force of .40 S&W has practically become an Urban Legend at this point with the sheer magnitude of exaggeration involved.
Worse yet, I thought .40 S&W was "Short & Wimpy" so how on earth is it simultaneously capable of causing hand/wrist injuries to Law Enforcement officers, yet is a "Short & Wimpy" cartridge? How absurd.

This conundrum used to trouble me, but I may have figured it out.

The .40 is admittedly a compromise cartridge between the .45 ACP and the 9mm.

The .45 guys came up with Short & Weak. The 9mm fellas have embedded "snappy" into the lexicon.

One I'm still working on is how the .38/40 (.40/180/950) was considered a first rate mankiller with a reputation for "shooting hard" while the .40 S&W (.40/180/950) is considered wimpy - sometimes by the same guy!

 

[Echo40]

I've always heard that the "Short & Wimpy" moniker came from 10mm Auto advocates, referencing the shorter case and lower power of .40 S&W compared to full-power 10mm loads.

If .45 ACP advocates were the ones who came up with the moniker, then it makes far less sense considering that .40 S&W is practically equal to .45 ACP in terms of kinetic energy foot-pounds, so the wimpy part would have to be strictly a reference to bullet diameter rather than overall ballistics performance. However, it wouldn't surprise me if .45 ACP guys jumped on the bandwagon and adopted use of the moniker themselves.

I've often heard that .40 S&W was basically the rough equivalent of .38-40, and that .38-40 had a good reputation as a man-stopped back in the day, which sort of begs the question; "Whatever happened to .38-40?" If it was such a good performer, then why did it decline in popularity, and why wasn't it used more by Law Enforcement? I mean, if it's basically .40 S&W, and .40 S&W has a good reputation for straight-line penetration through autobodies/windshield glass, then why wasn't it used by police more in the early 1990s when they were having so much trouble with automotive gangsters? I guess nobody every thought to test it out against automobiles, so nobody ever knew, or maybe it wasn't as effective against older automobiles as .40 S&W is against more modern automobiles.