Mystery Model 1917

[TCK318]

Just purchased a Mod 1917 in .45 ACP with S/N 131570 stamped on butt, bottom of barrel and outer aft edge of the cylinder. Has been re-blued and the flaming bomb ordinance stamp is missing the tips of the flames from the re-bluing. The lanyard ring has been removed and the S/N is stamped along the butt and that is all that is there not the "US" mark and the model number. There is no "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the left barrel but is has the "S&W D A 45" stamps. It does have the proper S&W stamping on top of the barrel with the patient dates ending in SEPT 14 1909. The right side of the barrel has "SMITH & WESSON". It has smooth walnut grips. I'm concerned that the markings, especially the S/N on the butt may not be correct and this gun may not truly be this S/N. Were some of the early military model 1917's not marked as US Property and perhaps not butt stamped with the US and the model number? Any help appreciated! Thanks. My first post!

 

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. Does it have a small S&W logo on the left side of the frame under the thumb release? There were indeed a few 1917s marketed commercially, but this is not a serial number I would expect to see on a commercial 1917. That may not mean anything as there is a lot I don't know about these guns.

Sometimes the flaming bomb is not evenly struck, so absence of flame tips is not necessarily evidence of overpolishing before a refinish. Sometimes government inspector marks show up on parts that were used in guns meant for non-military distribution.

 

[lebomm]

Your serial numbers all look kosher to me.

Larry

 

[Jack Flash]

The month/year of manufacture for serial number 131570 is November, 1918. So it is in the right range for WWI production.


But the serial number was written in two lines and perpendicular to the serial number shown on yours (see picture below found on line).

 

[murphydog]

Can you post a photo of the left grip frame minus the stocks? The number on the bottom of the grip frame looks to be factory so there may be a date or refinish code on the side, indicating a factory refinish (and presumably a restamped SN).

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

I believe you have a righteous 1917 Army Com'l Model, except for the smooth stocks. There may still be evidence of the s/n penciled on the back of the right stock, if so it won't match the gun.

Check the 3 assembly numbers: on frame in the yoke cut, on the yoke, and inside of side plate to confirm they match.

I agree with members above that the serial #s are factory stamped. Many frames were produced and # stamped during the war years, but did not get used to make military models. Over the next several decades, inspected, but unused serial numbered 1917 military frames PRECEDING and following #169959, (the estimated last military unit made), were assembled thru #209791 by 1946.

Some 1917 parts left over from the government contract with very varied shipping dates were assembled into many commercial model 1917s, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, 38/44s, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1937 and 1946.

Therefore the s/n is of little help to pin down the shipping dates, but features do help:

The mushroom extractor rod indicates pre 1928 production.
If the right side frame is stamped MADE IN U.S.A., IT'S POST 1922 PRODUCTION.
If no logo on the frame, pre ~1920 production.

"The factory added the 1917 as a regular cataloged commercial model in Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army. That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply.

Features of Commercial models post WW I:

No "Army" or "US Property" marks.
5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, but the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45".
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
S&W logo left side [after 1920], checkered non-medallion, convex top stocks during the 1920s. [Flat silver medallions thru the 1930s and war years.]"
The lowest Com'l model in the SWCA database = #167382 shipped Oct, 1922." Lee Jarrett

 

[Jack Flash]

Very interesting thread. I thought that it just may have been wartime production since the numbers on the barrel, butt frame, and cylinder match. Also the eagle and flaming bomb stampings.


My guess (and that's all it is) was that the gun was shipped to Uncle Sam in 1918, then at some time later the markings on the butt frame were ground off and the serial number restamped. Possibly all this was done when it was refinished.


If it was assembled from spare parts after the war, S&W sure did a good job of keeping the matching components together. Or they added the serial numbers later(?) but did not remove the government stamps(?)


Except for the first picture, (which may just be out of focus) all the stampings look very sharp. Hard to imagine that is a re-blue, unless the frame only was re-blued.

 

[Jack Flash]

TCK318:
A factory letter may be MANDITORY for this one.


No kidding, if it's a commercial M1917, the value may go up significantly.

 

[DWalt]

There is definitely something unusual about this one, and it's probably not simple to explain. This is one of those cases in which a factory letter may be worthwhile as it may clear away some of the fog.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Looks like a commercial model 1917 to me. Really the only thing unusual is the low serial number. And that can be explained because of the way S&W kept things and later used up inventory. If the blue finish is a bright blue, that would be typical of the commercial model finishes.

Guy

 

[TCK318]

First of all thanks for all the assistance so far!
To DCWILSON – NO it does not have a small S&W under the latch.
I did find an "S24" inspector stamp on the aft edge of the cylinder with some sort of logo above it.
Looks like an oil can or a pump of sorts. See photo.
To murphydog, There is no marking of the left frame See photo.
To Hondo44 – There is no penciled S/N on the inside of the grips. The grips look very old but have been finished with a high gloss finish. No logo on the right side of the frame. See photos if I can attach more of them. I think a factory letter might be the way to go.

 

[TCK318]

One more thing. As to the 3 assembly numbers: on frame in the yoke cut, on the yoke, and inside of side plate to confirm they match, I did check and the yoke cut and the yoke match as 6796 but I have not been able to get the side plate off yet to check there.. VERY tight.

 

[Jack Flash]

...I did find an "S24" inspector stamp on the aft edge of the cylinder with some sort of logo above it. Looks like an oil can or a pump of sorts. ... I think a factory letter might be the way to go.

What looks like an oil can is probably a stylized eagle / eagle's head, symbolic of the US.


It looks like a very nice gun. What leads you to believe it is re-blued? Does it look like the hammer and trigger are blued? I can't tell from the pictures.


A factory letter would be well worth the money, IMHO.

 

[TCK318]

The assembly number on the side plate does indeed match the yoke and the frame cut out. All are 6796! I would say the hammer and the trigger are blued but not as dark as the frame and they show wear from normal movement. There is some light pitting on the yoke hinge and around the left side barrel stamping that appears under the bluing like it was polished out and then re-blued plus the missing tips on the flames. All minor I agree and maybe I'm looking too close at these details.

 

[reddog81]

Be careful removing the sideare screws. It's easy to bugger up those screws. If it's being difficult to get off it might be because it hasn't ever been taken off.

 

[TCK318]

Thanks! It did come off and I believe from the inside dried grease that this is the first time it has been off! Took a larger wood handle and a more aggressive tapping than I am used to doing but it popped off eventually.

 

[Hondo44]

All the evidence so far leads me to conclude:

1. It's a very early Coml Model from before 1920 (no frame Trademark logo), with military grips replacing the more valuable pre 1920 commercial checkered stocks with gold medallions.

2. It has been refinished as evidenced by the flattened rebound slide pin tip protruding from the left frame side just forward of the top of the stock. That pin tip should be domed.

3. The only anomaly that I see is the flaming bomb on the upper left side of the frame. That is usually polished away when these 1917 frames are assembled into non-military models. But remember the main S&W rule; there are no rules!

4. What you see as an oil can over S24 is the head of an eagle with its beak pointing skyward. Observe it with magnification.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks! It did come off and I believe from the inside dried grease that this is the first time it has been off! Took a larger wood handle and a more aggressive tapping than I am used to doing but it popped off eventually.

I always soak the side plate edges with some sort of penetrating oil before attempted removal. And always coat the edges with gun oil when reinstalling.

 

[Jack Flash]

... I would say the hammer and the trigger are blued but not as dark as the frame and they show wear from normal movement. There is some light pitting on the yoke hinge and around the left side barrel stamping that appears under the bluing like it was polished out and then re-blued plus the missing tips on the flames. All minor I agree and maybe I'm looking too close at these details.

No, you are being observant. You have convinced me it is a re-blue, and not done in the most skillful manner possible, but not awful either. I still wonder if just the frame was re-blued.

 

[TCK318]

THANKS for all the tips. I am sending off for a Factory Letter on this one.
Great to have this Forum! I'll let you know what S&W Foundation has to say. Terry