Need advice for Berry's Hard Cast in 357 Magnum.

[scooter123]

Wanted to do some chronographing last Saturday but the range was closed for a Cowboy Rifle Silhouette Match. After looking at the info page for the event it looks like it would have been a lot of fun but it was Lead Bullet only. All I currently have for my Wnchester 1892 are Hornady XTP's so missed out on the event. However, in order to be able to do one of these down the road I ordered up 750 Berry's Hard Cast 158 grain TCFP's. Now I have to figure out a load that won't cause leading issues out of a rifle and with the smooth feeding of 357 Magnums in the Winchester need to use a Magnum length.

Available Powders are Vihtavouri 3N37, Accurate #5, Accurate #9, and H110. I'm leaning towards using either the 3N37 or AA #5 in order to keep the velocity down to a "safe" range in terms of leading. However, I sort of suspect that a 357 Magnum may be a bit lacking in energy for knocking over a steel Silhouette Target and will probably be competing against shooters using a 45 LC. In that case I may need to explore the upper limits of what velocities will minimize leading in my particular barrel.

First question is how fast can a Hard Cast (20 BHN) bullet be driven with out creating issues with leading. I know that this is influenced by the heat of combustion for the powder used but need some sort of range to work up some test loads at.

Second question is can a bullet be driven faster out of a rifle without leading issues than a handgun or is the upper limit on velocity independent of barrel length. My thinking here that in a longer barrel the heat at the base of the bullet should start to fall off at some point down barrel but I may be completely wrong in this theory.

Third question concerns Berry's Hard Cast bullets. How good is the lube they are supplied with or is some supplemental lube a good idea. Also, how good is the alloy they use. Probably should have done some asking before buying bullets but they were on sale at Cabela's and I've had good experiences with Berry's plated bullets.

 

[Engineer1911]

Accurate No. 5
158 (L) Lead Cast SWC start 8.0 grains 1,100 fps MAX 9.0 grains 1,220 fps 1.590" OAL

Taken from their data saved as a PDF to my computer. You could drop to 7.0 grains for a starting load without a problem.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The question is, why do you want to load up full power .357 Magnum loads for a match. Most every Cowboy I know load up .38 Special power loads in .357 Magnum brass for their levergun. There is no reason to go full throttle for a match.

I shoot 18 BHN bullets to ~1300 fps without leading. Your 158gr 20 BHN bullets can be pushed pretty much as hard as you want with no leading as long as they are a good fit in your barrel. If it were me I would be charging 4.5gr to 5.0gr W231 under a 158gr 12 BHN bullet in a .357 Magnum case.

According to the "formula" you can probably push those 20 BHN bullets to ~27,000 PSI but I have found if the lube is correct and the bullet fits the barrel correctly you can go much higher. Unfortunately since your bullets are so hard you can't load them to .38 Special pressures because hard bullets without enough pressure will lead the barrel worse than soft bullets pushed too hard. You will have to use the .357 Magnum data from Alliant since the bullets are so hard and the starting charge just might lead and if it does, up the charge don't drop it.

 

[scooter123]

I don't have any 231 and with powder being as difficult to find as it is right now won't even attempt to find any. I think what I'm going to try is some loads using Accurate #5 and patch the barrel after 10 rounds to test for leading. I'll also have to remember that obduration can be a significant factor in leading. Fortunately the Winchester is a real powder puff with full house magnums so if I can load the full range of Accurate's data without leading issues I count that as a good thing.

 

[RobsTV]

I agree with too hard for what you need, which would be the primary cause of leading.

Shooting 12 BHN at 1440 with no gas check and no leading here in a larger diameter (.401 180gr) 38-40 rifle.

For .358 magnum shooting, you could always get soft lead bullets, then add a common "plain base" gas check and run them at jacketed speeds if desired, with benefits of full lead bullet obturation. Usually not needed, but for easy 1.5 cent fix to problem leading, plain base gas checks do the job. I run my cast Mihec .358 125gr HP 12bhn with PBGC at 1300fps out of a 3" j-frame, never any signs of leading.

lead bullet obturation:
(10 BHN “requires minimum” 15,000 psi)
(12 BHN “requires minimum” 17,000 psi)
(14 BHN “requires minimum” 20,000 psi)
(17 BHN “requires minimum” 25,000 psi)

 

[ljnowell]

Why not use the #9? It's in a rifle, recoil shouldn't be a problem.


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[rwsmith]

Those are some hard bullets...

You should be able to get 1800 fps or a few hundred ft/sec more. I don't do what you are doing so this is really 'ballpark'.

 

[elpac3]

barrel leadding with .357

Now I won't claim to be an expert on cowboy action shooting but - - - - have been loading .357 for quite a number of years now.

If you need the energy - I would go with a heavier bullet moving at a moderate velocity. I routinely shoot 170 grain cast lead in my revolver at 1150 fps. with no leadding issues.

Another option - which I just tried out at the range last night are the Bayou cast / coated bullets. Read the hype about them and the "magic" coating that replaces the lube. Had my doubts - no more. Shot them in the .44 mag. By far and away shot the cleanest of any lead bullet load I have ever shot. Shoots like a jacket - really clean bore after 50 rounds. Price is right, service was great. Just wish they had the 250 Keith in their line-up.

 

[scooter123]

These Cowboy matches impose some specific requirements. Because the rifles used are always tubular magazine lever actions all bullets use must have a flat point larger than the diameter of the primer pocket. Lead bullets WITHOUT gas checks must be used due to shooting steel targets, the range doesn't want any jacket or gas check materials being bounced back to the firing line. Finally, I believe that you are scored by how many targets are downed, so it's necessary to have enough energy in the downrange bullet to knock over a heavy steel target.

Ideally I would have liked to use a 180 grain flat point lead bullet but due to time constraints I ordered what was a) easy to find and b) a brand name I have a lot of experience with.

It may turn out that I chose wrong but and this point the bullets I received today look to be pretty viable. Especially in view of some of the posts I've seen in this thread indicating at 1400 or 1500 fps leading shouldn't be a problem. I am also getting the idea that with the hardness of these bullets I will probably be best using Accurate #5 for my initial experiments. Because # 5 is fast enough to permit me to get the pressures up to an effective level for the hardness of the bullet while keeping the velocity yielded in a distinctly "safe" range. Down the road if I max out with #5 without any hint of leading and decide to try for more velocity I can then work up some loads using the 3N37 and then Accurate #9.

Anyhow, want to thank all who have posted and welcome any new ideas. If nothing else I suspect that this will be an interesting learning experience. Wish I had a range in my back yards because I'd be out there right now even if it is full dark. Now I have to hit the basement and put together some loads to try this weekend.

 

[RobsTV]

..(snip)
It may turn out that I chose wrong but and this point the bullets I received today look to be pretty viable. Especially in view of some of the posts I've seen in this thread indicating at 1400 or 1500 fps leading shouldn't be a problem. (snip)..

You may have misunderstood.
Those hard bullets at 1400 to 1500 (or slower) may indeed easily lead the barrel.

First and foremost, they must be the proper size.
For lead, that usually means .002 larger than slugged bore.
Then, they must also either be soft enough to obturate at pressure of current load, or if hard lead then pressure of load increased until they obturate (seal the bore), at least 30,000 for 20 BHN. I doubt you will get any obturation at that low of a speed with those hard bullets. But if not sized correctly first, it won't matter much anyway.

All that said, shoot 'em and hope for the best!

Edit: Looked up load data and looks like you will have enough pressure. Good luck!

 

[Steve C]

You will gain 200 to 300 fps in velocity over a handgun when shooting from a rifle using 158gr bullets. I chrono'd a .38 spl load using 158gr LSWC on top of 4.7grs of W231 from my Timberwolf 16" barrel carbine and the load ran 1,101 fps. From a 4" revolver the same load runs 879 fps.

You need enough pressure to bump up the base to fill the bore. With hard cast you will probably need near full power mag loads. If using low pressure cowboy loads using a softer bullets is the way to prevent leading.

I have loaded 12.2grs of AA9 in the .357 mag that delivers average velocity of 1,268 fps from a 4" revolver without any leading. Expect 1,500 + from a 16" carbine. Drop the load down a full grain would probably give a load about 1,400 fps.

 

[fredj338]

Vel is rarely an issue with handguns. Leading comes form poor bullet fit. Pretty easy to get 1400fps w/ med-hard cast lead in any handgun. You want a bullet to be 0.358" MIMIMUM. Then hopefully the bullet lube is up to the task. I would be fine using H110, but AA#9 will download a bit easier.

 

[scooter123]

Loaded up 11 rounds using 8.4 grains of Accurate #5. In a 357 Magnum case that wee bit of powder looked pretty lonely but I was VERY careful to not make a double charge. Prior experience with #5 in combination with 125 grain XTP's has demonstrated no issues at all with position sensitivity so I don't expect any problems concerning position sensitivity with this load. As for the specific charge amount, Accurate doesn't provide any pressure for the 8.0 grain starting charge so I chose to start closer to the mid range of the data due to all the posts indicating I need to keep the pressure up.

I also miked the Berry's bullets and they measure at 0.3584 to 0.3586 inch, so they shouldn't be undersize unless my barrel is way over spec. for size. With the accuracy I've seen in this rifle shooting 158 grain XTP's I do not have any concerns about an oversize barrel, shot cloverleafs at 50 yards last time out.

 

[ironhead7544]

Nor sure how far or how heavy the targets are for that type of match. If they are not hard to knock over, I would try a max load of Trail Boss.

If you need faster speeds, then IMR4227 would be my choice. IMR4227 leaves much less leading IME. It was designed for pistol sized rifle cartridges. The most accurate 357 Magnum loads I have come up with have been with this powder.

The truncated cone bullets always have fed well in lever guns for me and are very accurate. Penn Bullets makes them and you can get a number of diameters from them.

EDIT: Just looked up the rules for the pistol cal carbine event. It goes out to 100 meters and uses the pistol targets. No need for a real fast load.

 

[scooter123]

Tested my first trial load today and had no hint of leading. Load was the 158 grain Berry's Hard Cast over 8.4 grains of Accurate #5. Over my chronograph the velocity produced was 1410 fps average with an extreme spread of 44 fps. Primer used was a CCI 550 as Magnum primers are recommended by Accurate powders in their latest manual. Also tested for position sensitivity and saw no indication at all with this charge level.

Can't comment on the accuracy of this load because I wasn't shooting for groups at this point. However, the first shot fired drilled the orange dot in the 6 inch shoot-n-c near dead center and only about 1/8 inch high. Probably luck but I was really tempted to call it a day at that point, it's not very often I get a near perfect center hit at 50 yards shooting with iron sights. After that I wasn't really trying for accuracy, all I was doing was shooting for the chronograph and recording the results. Overall I'd estimate the group to be around 3 1/2 inches or a bit more so there is some accuracy potential there. Next weekend I'll do some serious shooting for accuracy with this load and will get a better idea of what it will do.

Also shot 6 rounds over the chronograph with my 6 inch Dan Wesson, velocity with the handgun averaged 1170 fps., so they aren't real barn burners. Have no idea at all about the accuracy from a handgun, by this point my target was pretty shot up from all the load testing that I did today.

Full list of loads tested with the 1892 today are as follows.

158 grain Hornady XTP over 14.8 grains of H110. This is my most accurate load to date and the first group of 5 was 1.1 inches at 50 yards. Pretty darned good from a peep sight and 59 year old eyes. Velocity average 1610 fps. with an ES of just 24 fps.

140 grain XTP over 17.5 grains of H110. These shot a bit lower than the 158 grain load and grouped at about 2.2 inches but some of that may have been me getting a bit tired. Velocity produced was 1900 fps. average with an ES of 48 fps which I'm not wild about. It may be that I need to do some case trimming to build a more consistent crimp with these bullets.

Hornady 140 grain FTX over 14.2 grains of H110. Velocity produced was 1500 fps with an ES of 72 fps. I had hopes that using H110 would produce a gain in velocity for these bullets but I get 1550 fps. with Accurate #9 and the ES is a lot less. One issue with this bullet is that the bullet uses up a lot of case volume so there really isn't room for an adequate load of H110 and I think that is the cause for the big swings in velocity I observed. Bottomline is that Hornady's recommendation to use Accurate #9 with this bullet is the correct call to make and I can't advise anyone to try H110 with this bullet. I also can't really recommend this particular bullet, the performance results posted on Youtube are miserable and I haven't found them to be as accurate as Hornady's XTP's. Once I use up the 300 I have on hand I won't be purchasing any more.

Finally the Berry's Hard Cast. With a velocity of 1410 fps from the rifle they will certainly have enough energy to knock down a steel silhouette target, actually it may have more energy than I need. However, AA #5 is the fastest powder I have on hand that meters well and there wasn't the slightest hint of any leading at all. So, current plan is to do some careful accuracy testing and I'll try and hone in on the most accurate charge level. I'd really love to get these to shoot as well as that Hornady 158 XTP/H110 combination. If so, I get a Cowboy load that is really accurate and also a load that features a less expensive bullet and a lower charge weight, so it's a bit of a win-win even if they only approach the XTP's for accuracy.