New Model 3-need some help.

[SergeantEllingsworth]

Good evening and thanks for stopping by!
I recently purchased a S&W New Model 3 that has been wasting away on consignment in my local gun store. The previous owner passed after a short battle with cancer, and left his entire collection to be sold off via an executor. The lawyer in charge knew nothing about the gun, and the store owner knew little more than she did, so I started my own research as the three of us launched in on price haggling. After a month and a half of that madness, I finalized the purchase a couple days ago and, thanks to California law, can't pick it up for another few days.
Here's what I know for sure;
New Model 3, 7" barrel, weak cylinder lock spring, NO S&W cartouche stamped on the right hand side of the frame, OLD wood grips, no lanyard, small "c" inspectors mark in frame portion of top latch, serial 26513. Is NOT a target model, since the front sight is the standard hemispherical one.
Here's what I suspect;
Previous owner refinished the gun (poorly) at some point; though the stamping on the spine is visible, the finish seems overthick, and is wearing away on the stock to reveal a beautiful patina. I SUSPECT that it is chambered in 44 Russian due to slight necking in the cylinder. All serials match.
Here's what I want to know;
When was this gun manufactured, is the finish original, are the grips original, are Uberti parts interchangeable (for the cylinder catch spring), and are my assumptions correct or incorrect.

This is where I hand it over to you guys; anything you can tell me will be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and the ending price that I paid, out the door? $150.

Quick aside; this has been my first California gun purchase, since the Army has only recently moved me here. There WILL be more to come.

 

[opoefc]

Your gun was probably shipped in 1891, as several close serial numbers were all 1891 shipped guns, so the LGS is in error for charging you a DROSS charge, as the gun is an antique and not required to be registered in Calif. However if they settled for $150 you got an absolute steal and the lawyer did not do his ( or her) fiduciary responsibility to the Estate. If the grips are original, the serial number will be stamped on the back side of the right grip. Hard rubber grips were the standard for these guns, however wood grips were available. The finish does appear to be a reblue. A factory letter will tell you the exact date of shipping. to whom & where. I do not know if Uberti parts will interchange, however I suspect that could be the case, or at least an Uberti part could be reshaped to fit. Good luck, Ed.

 

[kobsw]

Your gun was probably shipped in 1891, as several close serial numbers were all 1891 shipped guns, so the LGS is in error for charging you a DROSS charge, as the gun is an antique and not required to be registered in Calif. However if they settled for $150 you got an absolute steal and the lawyer did not do his ( or her) fiduciary responsibility to the Estate. If the grips are original, the serial number will be stamped on the back side of the right grip. Hard rubber grips were the standard for these guns, however wood grips were available. The finish does appear to be a reblue. A factory letter will tell you the exact date of shipping. to whom & where. I do not know if Uberti parts will interchange, however I suspect that could be the case, or at least an Uberti part could be reshaped to fit. Good luck, Ed.

This^^^^^ And It's a re-blue since the trigger and hammer are blued as well which is not correct for this gun.

I like it and good on you for snagging it.

Regards,

Kobsw

 

[mmaher94087]

Uberti parts will not fit - generally speaking. With modification; the parts may fit. Since the NM#3 cylinder stop spring is a flat leaf spring, I'd venture that one can be made or yours re-shaped. Since the revolver is reblued; the cylinder stop may only be sluggish from crud (from polishing) in the stop slot.

 

[mmaher94087]

WAIT!! Cancel my last post. Your revolver has a bad trigger or hammer sear or both. I just took a second look at the pictures. The trigger is sitting too far forward of the trigger guard. The weak cylinder lock engagement is caused by a filed or honed sear(s). The sear engagement allows the trigger to sit too high in the notch, which makes the front lip of the trigger engage the cylinder lock and lower it out of battery. You need a new trigger or hammer, if not both.

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

You guys are awesome, thank you so much for the help!!

 

[mmaher94087]

Sgt, to prove my point; a slight pull of the trigger towards the rear should cause the cylinder to lock. Either weld and re-cut the hammer or place a weld bead on the trigger sear and re-cut them - or both.

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

Sgt, to prove my point; a slight pull of the trigger towards the rear should cause the cylinder to lock. Either weld and re-cut the hammer or place a weld bead on the trigger sear and re-cut them - or both.

I'm still in the California Mandated 10-Day Waiting Period (the FFL was insistent that the age of the pistol only mattered if it was someone with an antique and curio license buying it, and I was absolutely done arguing with him), but once i pick it up on the 29th I'll be doing a full fieldstrip, cleaning, inspection, and function check, along with more detailed photos.
In the mean time, after reading your advice and reevaluating my photos, I'm beginning to wonder if the trigger is possibly not even from this gun. The shape (not to mention the position) is highly suspect. Any thoughts?

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

For clarity;

 

[opoefc]

The LGS is totally ignorant. There's no such thing as an antique & curio license. The only license is a Curio & Relic license from the ATF for guns made over 50 yrs. ago and later than 1898. Guns made before 1899 are all antiques - no license required, no CA. registration charges or 10 day wait required, even under CA. laws which are slightly different, but still call the gun an antique as it fires only black powder ammunition which is not commonly available in 44 Cal. If they charged you anything for the DROSS, they owe you a refund and their bound book as an error in it. Ed.

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

Ed,
Thanks, I appreciate the help. I'm gonna stop by tomorrow and see if I can explain it to him in more detail.
V/R
Tristan

 

[mmaher94087]

I can only hope it helps: ALL New Model frames were made prior to 1899 regardless of how long they were advertised or sold by Smith & Wesson. Check the BATFE listing. ALL New Model #3 revolvers are ANTIQUE!!! Make them look it up.

 

[model3sw]

Sgt, to prove my point; a slight pull of the trigger towards the rear should cause the cylinder to lock. Either weld and re-cut the hammer or place a weld bead on the trigger sear and re-cut them - or both.

... Mike, you may as well advise Sarge that welding and recutting the stops on the hammer is a labor intensive, arduous, task and not for the feint of heart nor the novice or the old-gun putterer.

Somewhere along the time line future, these hammers will need to be expertly rebuilt as finding a "undamaged" used hammer is nearly impossible. Fact be told, the hammer and trigger (upper end of trigger is sear) should be replaced together, both rebuilt to specs.

It amazes me that the tolerances from 1878 (when first released) are quite tight. It's like doing unibody repairs on a Porsche ... there is no room for error. Proper regard to tolerances is essential. The mechanics of a NM3 is unforgiving at the hands of anyone less than a master, although (theoretically) if you had a new hammer, sear, springs and stops ... they would just about drop right in and function perfectly on a tight gun.

 

[model3sw]

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if research on that one comes back to a Japanese Navy contract gun.

 

[mmaher94087]

Sal, I agree. I have the knowledge but not the equipment to do the repairs. The O/A look of the revolver along with the SN leads me to concur that this could be a Japanese Navy shipped gun.

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if research on that one comes back to a Japanese Navy contract gun.

I'm curious about that; I was under the impression that the Japanese Navy contracts either had anchor marks or lanyard rings. The ONLY identifying marks on this, aside from the matching serial throughout (I still haven't been able to check inside the grip scales yet) and the inspection mark inside the latch, is the patent information along the spine of the barrel. There are no caliber markings, import or export stamps, or even S&W crest stamped anywhere. That was part of why it was such a challenge to accurately identify and value originally.
V/R
Tristan

 

[model3sw]

I'm curious about that; I was under the impression that the Japanese Navy contracts either had anchor marks or lanyard rings. The ONLY identifying marks on this, aside from the matching serial throughout (I still haven't been able to check inside the grip scales yet) and the inspection mark inside the latch, is the patent information along the spine of the barrel. There are no caliber markings, import or export stamps, or even S&W crest stamped anywhere. That was part of why it was such a challenge to accurately identify and value originally.
V/R
Tristan

To be sure, you'd have to write the S&WHF for a research letter. It is in or near a known Japanese serial number range.

You should know that probably less than 1/3 of all guns sent to Japan have Japanese characters or markings. Most are completely unmarked in any way to suspect (at a glance) that it factually was a Japanese contract.

Some tells are that they just sort of have a gut "appearance" to them. Then, sometimes the cylinder numbers do not match the frame.

Check the serial number on the frame, the face of the cylinder, the latch, and on the barrel itself ... the latter located in the recess of the very tail end of the barrel visible only with the latch raised to the full extent. Most likely you'll need a Q-Tip to clean off dirt in the recesses to be able to read the serial number correctly.

Report back with serial number check on a 4 parts.

I have one in nickel with a lanyard (all numbers matched), and another in blue (non factory refinished) that is half of one Japanese SN and half of another. The frame is one SN, the barrel, cylinder and clasp are another Japanese SN. The mixed number one has a Russian type Tang on the trigger guard

The nickel, when I purchased about 30 years ago, fooled me. I didn't expect it to be a Japanese contract gun but had hoped it was a Revenue Cutter Service. I gambled on whether it was or not a RCS gun. The seller did not present it as such.

 

[model3sw]

Sgt, to prove my point; a slight pull of the trigger towards the rear should cause the cylinder to lock. Either weld and re-cut the hammer or place a weld bead on the trigger sear and re-cut them - or both.

About 20 years ago i designed a fix for the hammers and had my favorite machinist interested to work on this with me, but the time is what I didn't have along with the thought that it was very unlikely I'd ever be able to recoup the invested money and time in the (then) near future.

More important, it would be a functional (but professional) repair but NOT a restorative repair so collector value would be impaired.

Sal

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

Model3SW I HAVE VERIFIED MATCHING SERIALS IN ALL FOUR PLACES, though I didn't get a pic of the barrel serial last time I was there. I'm going to do a deep clean next week when it comes home and I'll post better pics then.

 

[SergeantEllingsworth]

Success!!

Ok, the New Model 3 came home with me today, so I was able to clean it and strip that godawful refinish job.
I have identified what I de to be the core of the mechanical issues; the hand spring broke in half upon removal. It was already squished nearly flat, so I'm honestly not surprised that the 150 year old chunk of steel gave up the ghost. I intend to order a Uberti replacement.
Next I stripped the refinish job, starting with the hammer and the trigger. As an aside, the trigger seems to fit perfectly naturally, but it DOES sit strangely in the trigger guard, so I'm not sure why it doesn't behave like the majority of new model 3 triggers I have seen.
I cleaned, CLP'd and reassembled the pistol, noting that the plate covering the action on the left hand side seemed to have on oil-slick/damascua pattern to it, which I had noted even through the bad blueing job.
Cleaned, stripped, oiled and reassembled, everything but the broken spring seemed to function correctly.
My next step will be finding .44 Russian in Los Angeles, which will TOALLY be a picece if cake, getting the replacement spring, and getting a Factory Letter to establish the piece's history.
Any insight or recommendations would be appreciated.
One last thing; there was no serial on the inside of the grips, though there was significant rust and putting on the frame.

Tristan.