This is pertaining the revolvers NOT shipped out to turkey. In an old version of Flayderman's guide to antique American firearms it is mentioned that 121 revolvers were not sold to the Turkish government but to a dealer. It also mentions that the full list of serial numbers of these guns(as in the ones not sold to turkey) can be found in "the book by Jinks and Neal". However in the most recent version of the Smith and Wesson standard catalog I can't find any mention of these serial numbers(but I only had limited access so I might have just missed them). Does anybody know where I could potentially find these serial numbers or even better does anybody have a list of these serial numbers?
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New model no. 3 Turkish model
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opoefc
US Veteran
Welcome to the Forum. A list of the serial numbers of guns not sold to Turkey is in the book " Smith & Wesson 1857-1945" by Roy Jinks and Robert Neal. 1st Edit. or the revised edition. 58 guns went to Wexel & DeGress Dec. 11, 1879,for Mexico, and 121 went to Shoveling, Daly & Gales, Oct. 23, 1888. One quick way of telling if you have a Turkish model that did not go to Turkey, is whether to not the .44RF caliber has been stamped on the frame in it's metric caliber. ) 11.3 mm, as was done by the Turks on many of their S&W revolvers, plus many of the non-Turkish shipped guns do not have a lanyard swivel. Ed.
Masterpiece
Member
GunNoob,
If you have access to a copy of the Neal & Jinks Book (Smith & Wesson 1857-1945)...Look on Page 192 & you'll find the info you're inquiring about!!
On that page it notes the Serial Numbers of all the leftover Turkish Models sold to US S&W Dealers...58 from the Original Order of 5000 sold to Wexel & DeGress in 1879...And 121 leftover from the 1883 Order of 281 sold to Shoverling, Daly and Gales in 1888!! Hope this helps!!
Masterpiece
Member
Gotta Learn To Type Faster!!
Ed,
Looks like I gotta learn to type faster...Thanks!!...Ha!!~Ha!!
Ed,
Looks like I gotta learn to type faster...Thanks!!...Ha!!~Ha!!
Thanks for the information. The metric caliber is not stamped on the frame and also the AFC inspection mark on the grip is missing. Some sources claim this is also an indication the gun has not been shipped to turkey, is that correct? I currently don't have access the book, but I will try to get my hands on a copy.
Just to clarify I don't own the gun yet but I am considering to buy one from a private seller who is currently selling one. As my name suggests I am kind of new to the whole antique gun scene so I am a bit unsure on whether to buy it. As to the value, does the value differ from the value of the Turkish model supplied to the Turkish government? I know the values of the Turkish model from the aforementioned standard catalog of Smith and Wesson and there are several "recent" auctions of which the sale price can be found online but I can't find anything value wise on the non-Turkish government examples.
opoefc
US Veteran
Most S&W collectors are aware of the Turkish shipped guns but maybe not as aware of the commercial shipments to S&W distributors. Granted the non-Turkish guns maybe show up on the market more often than original Turkish shipped guns as few guns have returned to the US from Turkey and the few that have, show extensive wear & mixed parts, etc. sales are so seldom, It's hard to say the market can show any difference in purchase prices between the two types of the 44RF Turkish models. I recently sold a Turkish contract gun, well used, however it was on my table at gun shows for 2 yrs. before I found a buyer. Absence of the AFC inspector's stamp would be a strong indicator the gun is not a contract gun, plus all numbers should match. The seller should furnish a factory letter showing shipment to a S&W commercial distributor, if he's claiming it's not a contract gun. Tell us the serial number and we can quickly tell you if it's on the list in the S&W book. Ed.
The serial numbers are matching and the serial number is 5431. The edition of the Flayderman's guide to antique fire arms I read did give different values for the different guns(about 50% more for the non-Turkish guns). However it is a very old edition so that might have changed. What would be a fair price for the gun in your mind(or in the mind of other forum users if they want to reply)? Mechanically it is in very good shape and roughly 60% of the original finish is still present. If you need met to upload some pictures to get a better idea, I could do that.
opoefc
US Veteran
Ser. # 5431 went to Shoveling, Daly & Gales, so the gun will letter as a commercial shipped gun. In my opinion, the additional margin of value for a commercial gun vs. a contract gun does not reach 50% +. Good pictures would help estimate market value range, as the real Gorilla in the Room here is condition, when it comes to value. Actually, I would expect a really minty matching numbers contract gun will bring more than a commercial gun, as all the contract guns got well used, rode hard and put away wet, then were often disassembled and put back together w/o any concerns about matching the parts. The fact that they still worked after all that, tells you something about S&W quality. These are rare guns, regardless of where they went, and few S&W collections have examples. Ed.
I added some pictures provided by the seller(which are unfortunately not crystal clear). As you can see the gun is not in a perfect condition, however like I mentioned mechanically it is in a very good condition. Personally I quiet like the look of a bit of wear on the finish of a gun, but I understand that for the value more original finish is better. Also thanks for all the help and information you have supplied this far.
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opoefc
US Veteran
That's a very nice specimen, although the photos don't show the breech face to prove it's a rim fire. Value is in the medium to mid four figures, I would say, as they don't come on the market that often. Are the stocks numbered to the gun ? Ed.
opoefc
US Veteran
Yes. Smith & Wesson called them "stocks", not grips. $2K-$4k yes. Ed.
Ah, okay. Hmm well now the only thing left to do is to decide if I want it or not. Thanks for all the information and help.
