New, no lock, Model 19-10 extra part?

[Bullet Bob]

"...there is no reason to put a filler..."

Except maybe that then people would be posting complaints about the empty space. We're a hard bunch to satisfy.

 

[Yendor357]

It didn’t take long for the shine of the “No Lock” models to come off.

At some point, you just have to come to the realization that it’s not 1969 anymore.

 

[b737lvr]

It didn’t take long for the shine of the “No Lock” models to come off.

At some point, you just have to come to the realization that it’s not 1969 anymore.

To be fair there is still no lock. All they did was put a dummy lock in place that can’t engage. It’s really not a big deal.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

OK, I decided to go ahead and open her back up and show you what's there. My memory failed me; it does still have the "lug" on the little "flag" plate, but it cannot engage the hammer notch, so...why? As you can see, it's not the same part as the "flag" in the IL models, and there is no engagement cam either. It also doesn't have the same retention method with the little fork as the IL system uses. It has some kind of pivoting arm with spring for retention. The spring holds this part in downward orientation so that it cannot pivot upward to engage the hammer. I also included a pic of the hammer so you can see it is the same hammer used in the IL models. So this begs the question... why did S&W decide to make an entirely new part and bother putting this part in the no-lock guns to begin with? I'm sure it is a transition part if they are eventually planning to move away from the locks. But still, it has no apparent function that I can think of, and the gun will still run just fine without it, so why put this thing in there? What is the thought process here?

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

To be fair there is still no lock. All they did was put a dummy lock in place that can’t engage. It’s really not a big deal.

Correct, it can't engage. And it's not really a big deal to me, except for the fact it makes no sense to me why it's there. Seems like an unnecessary expense. But maybe it has some legit purpose in conjunction with the IL style hammer?

 

[b737lvr]

OK, I decided to go ahead and open her back up and show you what's there. My memory failed me; it does still have the "lug" on the little "flag" plate, but it cannot engage the hammer notch, so...why? As you can see, it's not the same part as the "flag" in the IL models, and there is no engagement cam either. It also doesn't have the same retention method with the little fork as the IL system uses. It has some kind of pivoting arm with spring for retention. The spring holds this part in downward orientation so that it cannot pivot upward to engage the hammer. I also included a pic of the hammer so you can see it is the same hammer used in the IL models. So this begs the question... why did S&W decide to make an entirely new part and bother putting this part in the no-lock guns to begin with? I'm sure it is a transition part if they are eventually planning to move away from the locks. But still, it has no apparent function that I can think of, and the gun will still run just fine without it, so why put this thing in there? What is the thought process here?

Maybe they did it to give us something to talk about, we sure love that here

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Just to F with us!

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Ok, curiosity got the best of me, so rather than speculate what that part is intended for, I called S&W and asked. The CS guy I talked to told me it was a drop safety device and was there so it would pass California drop safety requirements.

The way it functions is, if the gun ever falls and lands violently upside down on a cocked SA mode hammer, ostensibly the plate will pivot upwards under inertia to engage the slot in the hammer and preventing it from striking the firing pin. If you look at my photo above, there is a pin on the LH narrow end of that plate. This is a hinge. A spring in the slot forward of the plate holds it in the downward position at rest, so it cannot engage the hammer in normal use. Only if the gun falls and lands upside down on the hammer can inertia cause the plate to pivot upwards.

Colt addressed this CA requirement by putting a "hook" on the hammer sear ledge of the Python and Anaconda (and maybe some of their other "snake" revolvers as well) which is why its SA trigger pull out of the box is 5-6 lbs.

 

[b737lvr]

Ok, curiosity got the best of me, so rather than speculate what that part is intended for, I called S&W and asked. The CS guy I talked to told me it was a drop safety device and was there so it would pass California drop safety requirements.

The way it functions is, if the gun ever falls and lands violently upside down on a cocked SA mode hammer, ostensibly the plate will pivot upwards under inertia to engage the slot in the hammer and preventing it from striking the firing pin. If you look at my photo above, there is a pin on the LH narrow end of that plate. This is a hinge. A spring in the slot forward of the plate holds it in the downward position at rest, so it cannot engage the hammer in normal use. Only if the gun falls and lands upside down on the hammer can inertia cause the plate to pivot upwards.

Colt addressed this CA requirement by putting a "hook" on the hammer sear ledge of the Python and Anaconda (and maybe some of their other "snake" revolvers as well) which is why its SA trigger pull out of the box is 5-6 lbs.

Wow, good to know. Glad we got it sorted. So there really is no lock.

 

[DT75]

Ok, curiosity got the best of me, so rather than speculate what that part is intended for, I called S&W and asked. The CS guy I talked to told me it was a drop safety device...

That's what the hammer block is for, is it not?

 

[SmithMarine]

There’s another thread here somewhere that shows it. It’s the flag from the lock. Looks like the same flag as before but no way to unlock it if it fails. Unsure why they left it there. Would seem to just not put it in at all would save time and money. Im holding out for a bit longer until it’s completely gone.

The "filler" is needed to keep debris from getting in the machined slot that would jamb the hammer. I have installed the PLUG in my guns. I left in the flag to fill the space next to the hammer. When the key is turned, the original old part locks the flag up. The flag is spring loaded and cannot stay up and if it does it can be pushed down. In addition, there is a stud on the hammer side of the flag that engages a slot in the hammer. Ehen this stud in ground off, it can NEVER lock the hammer and then can ONLY act as a spacer. If one is worried about the lock engaging the hammer, the ONLY change needed to the gun is to grind off this stud on the flag and problem solved for free.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

The "filler" is needed to keep debris from getting in the machined slot that would jamb the hammer. I have installed the PLUG in my guns. I left in the flag to fill the space next to the hammer. When the key is turned, the original old part locks the flag up. The flag is spring loaded and cannot stay up and if it does it can be pushed down. In addition, there is a stud on the hammer side of the flag that engages a slot in the hammer. Ehen this stud in ground off, it can NEVER lock the hammer and then can ONLY act as a spacer. If one is worried about the lock engaging the hammer, the ONLY change needed to the gun is to grind off this stud on the flag and problem solved for free.

Smith, see a couple posts up. It's a drop safety in the "no-lock" guns per S&W customer service.

I understand what you're saying about a space filler, but in the "no lock" guns, there is no open slot adjacent to the hammer for any debris to get into. I agree that grinding off the lug on the flag plate and using it as a filler when installing a "PLUG" is a good idea, but in this case on a no-lock gun, you cannot do that since the slot in the frame adjacent to the hammer for the flag to project out of isn't there. And the part in question isn't designed in the same way as the similar looking lock plate as shown in the photo posted above.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

That's what the hammer block is for, is it not?

No, the hammer block only works when the hammer is down, in uncocked position. The drop safety is for when the hammer is cocked in SA mode and you drop it. In that case, the rebound slide is to the rear, which retracts the hammer block out of the way.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

And the hammer block is a redundancy to the rebound slide lug and corresponding hammer rebound lug, which retracts the hammer away from the firing pin. An actual case during WWII where a guy in the Navy was killed from a dropped Victory revolver showed that the rebound lug could not be totally depended on, and the US government forced S&W to install a redundant drop safety, which resulted in the current hammer block design.

 

[Invictus357]

Ok, curiosity got the best of me, so rather than speculate what that part is intended for, I called S&W and asked. The CS guy I talked to told me it was a drop safety device and was there so it would pass California drop safety requirements.

The way it functions is, if the gun ever falls and lands violently upside down on a cocked SA mode hammer, ostensibly the plate will pivot upwards under inertia to engage the slot in the hammer and preventing it from striking the firing pin. If you look at my photo above, there is a pin on the LH narrow end of that plate. This is a hinge. A spring in the slot forward of the plate holds it in the downward position at rest, so it cannot engage the hammer in normal use. Only if the gun falls and lands upside down on the hammer can inertia cause the plate to pivot upwards.

Colt addressed this CA requirement by putting a "hook" on the hammer sear ledge of the Python and Anaconda (and maybe some of their other "snake" revolvers as well) which is why its SA trigger pull out of the box is 5-6 lbs.

This is really good info to have, thanks.

That explains why the new no-lock L frame and smaller did not get their traditional frame curve back.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

This is really good info to have, thanks.

That explains why the new no-lock L frame and smaller did not get their traditional frame curve back.

Yep, that's exactly right. In order to add these parts in that location next to the hammer, S&W couldn't use the same, more graceful, classic curve in the top of the frame near the hammer as they once used. I told the S&W guy on the phone that very thing, and he kind of agreed with me.

Unfortunately, they have little choice but to adapt to changes in the laws dictating what they must do in order to sell product in a wider range of places. The drop test requirement necessitated they add this feature if they wanted to sell revolvers in places that mandate it. The traditional 4" barrels on legacy guns now became either 4.125" or 4.25" so they could sell guns in Canada, which mandates handguns with barrels over 4". In the end, they are a business, and they must act in the best interests of stockholders. The hammer block in its current form is a byproduct of the US dept of defense telling S&W they had to redesign their hammer block system and provide redundancy to the hammer rebound lugs if they wished to continue selling revolvers to the US military following a well-publicized case of a Navy serviceman who was killed from a dropped Victory revolver.