New really hard way to pull bullets....

[rwsmith]

I'm making a good bit of ammo now for 9mm for three guns. My 3rd gen eats everything. The Shield is a little more picky but I've made some adjustments to crimp and a few things and it's running good. Now the Kel Tec P11 jams up a lot in ways that are more difficult to take care of than just ejecting a round. The thing is almost impossible to open. If you can shoot the round, no problem, it will eject, but I'm at home and working ammo through the action to test function. My ammo plunk tests well. The longest ammo is well within the 1.16" max OAL at 1.143'. I initially tried LSWCs in these and had problems with the smaller guns so I simplified by loading 124 gr. JHPs and Winchester FMJ round noses to test. I still had problems with the Kel Tec jamming closed and stopping slightly out of battery where sometimes I could hit the back of the slide and close it but not always. I forced it open, sometime by hand and sometime knocking the slide back with a wood block. Then I noticed. that when I was opening the slide on unfired bullets, IT WAS PULLING THE BULLET AND LEAVING IT IN THE BARREL. I had to knock the bullet out of the barrel with a rod. Of course no ammo would feed after that and it's a good thing. I measure the depth of the chambers in the Shield and the Kel-tec and they were identical and right on the SAAMI specs. What I don't know is how close to the chamber the lands and grooves start, but the bullets are getting stuck in the barrel like they start too high too close to the chamber.

I'm going to measure my brass and trim if needed, but I don't think about 90% of my brass is that out sized. Anyway, that doesn't affect the OAL and there still isn't any reason for the lands grabbing the bullet. I gave the guns a good cleaning to make sure that fouling wasn't the problem. Both guns are fairly new and have not been shot a lot, but that didn't help anything except for smoother operation.

Factory fmj round nose practice ammo runs fine in all the guns, so It's got to be my reloaded ammo. Both fmj and jhp jammed up.

I've had two unsatisfactory range tests and am into preparing for a third, but I uncovered these problems. I think I'll make a few rounds of minimum length ammo to see how it feeds and ejects. I don't have to go to the range to do that.

While I'm working on this idiotic problem, has anybody seen this or have any idea what is happening?? It's a smooth working gun and I believe if I can get things right it will be very reliable, but right now it would make a better hammer than a gun.

 

[4barrel]

Size the bullets .001 smaller for that gun. Then thank me.

 

[Rule3]

Take the barrel out a plunk test them(crimped) until they drop in and out freely in THAT gun.

The rounds need to be taper crimped as it headspaces on the case mouth so if they are still a little flared they are gonna stick. Not all barrel leades are the same. If you try plunk testing without crimping it is not gonna work

I know you said you plunk tested but some guns just do not like LSWC. You should only have a a finger nail width of the driving band showing (give or take)

 

[ageingstudent]

Take the barrel out a plunk test them(crimped) until they drop in and out freely in THAT gun.

The rounds need to be taper crimped as it headspaces on the case mouth so if they are still a little flared they are gonna stick. Not all barrel leades are the same. If you try plunk testing without crimping it is not gonna work

I know you said you plunk tested but some guns just do not like LSWC. You should only have a a finger nail width of the driving band showing (give or take)

Yes my P220 loves lswc's seated a hair too long. It loves them so much it won't let them go. Even seated super short to the edge of the driving band they don't always clink when they plunk sometimes they thud and stick. I've switched to LRN and plated. Problem solved.

 

[Nevada Ed]

+1 with the above..........

The case must have the flare/belling removed to do a plunk or chamber feed test.
This just lets you know that the fit is either a go or no go if the
action will close all the way with cases between .754 and .751" in length.

Next comes bullet length that depends on Ogive and bullet length......... that needs to be off the rifling and lands but also far enough out of the case to feed and not cause over high pressures.

This is a can of worms and I will not open it, since there are lots of notes and ideas already posted on this subject.

Good luck.

 

[rwsmith]

First success.....

+1 with the above..........

The case must have the flare/belling removed to do a plunk or chamber feed test.
This just lets you know that the fit is either a go or no go if the
action will close all the way with cases between .754 and .751" in length.

Next comes bullet length that depends on Ogive and bullet length......... that needs to be off the rifling and lands but also far enough out of the case to feed and not cause over high pressures.

This is a can of worms and I will not open it, since there are lots of notes and ideas already posted on this subject.

Good luck.

Nevada in his PM hit on one. I found the longest seated Winchester RN FMJ (actually has a little flat on the end) plunks extremely well up to 1.42". Next I'll try some other bullets. The flare (or 'de bell') is good. I doubt I'll have to trim the cases, probably wouldn't help anyway.

Oh, and I'll check the 'diving' too. That may be a prob with the SWCs, but that's not critical to me. I just need enough for practice and defense use. Of course I'm not going to relegate this gun to SD until I have it working near perfect. But I think I'm getting a handle on it. I thought using an impact bullet puller was hard, but try getting a bullet stuck in the lands and EXTRACT it. Speaking of extractor, I feel lucky I didn't break one.

 

[BC38]

You said your OAL is well below max, and you also said the Kel-tech does fine with factory rounds.

How does the OAL of your reloads compare to the OAL of the factory rounds that are working well?

I'm wondering if maybe your reloaded OAL - even though it is below max - might not still be longer than the factory ammo that is working well.

Just spitballin' here...

 

[rwsmith]

I don't think I have any left......

You said your OAL is well below max, and you also said the Kel-tech does fine with factory rounds.

How does the OAL of your reloads compare to the OAL of the factory rounds that are working well?

I'm wondering if maybe your reloaded OAL - even though it is below max - might not still be longer than the factory ammo that is working well.

Just spitballin' here...

No, you are right. There is SOME different dimension or shape of bullet between the two. I'll have to find or get some more of the practice ammo. It was the Remington 'Disintegrator' stuff. I have my notes and the remainder of all kinds of ammo in boxes, so maybe I can piece together some solution. But naturally after a range session shooting three semis and a revolver with a LOT of different ammo, things are in a bit of a muddle. Again, with everybody's help I've made good progress just tonight and I know what to look for in old and new ammo. I'd like to come up with something that I'm confident with in all my semis. One thing about this problem is that it's making me look REALLY close at everything I'm doing with semi ammo and I feel like I've benefited already. At least I can be mostly sure that the next 'proving' range session won't be such a disaster.

I suspect that my Shield might be like this, but maybe not quite as bad since I had better luck but far from perfect with it. Again, the 3rd gen eats anything I put in it. Round, hollow point, LSWC, any length, you name it.

 

[Big Cholla]

rw: I believe that if you did a cerrocast of the chamber of that barrel you would find that the 'leade' was never cut correctly. The 'leade' is the transaction from the chamber shoulder to the full rifled barrel. Some manufacturers use the two reamer method which cuts the chamber first and then secondly cuts the 'leade'. I bet that step got left out on your barrel. It is a simple fix with the proper chamber reamer using just hand power on the reamer. ...........

 

[Rule3]

The COL of a RN bullet is not going to be the same as a LSWC.

Without seeing your loaded rounds it really sounds like you COL is to long, The slide goes forward and JAMS the bullet in the chamber so when you try to rack the slide back you can't and with enough force you pull it apart. I I have had it happen on a 45, 1911 and took two of us to pull the slide back.

If you can post a pic of a loaded round at the OAL that was giving you problems.

 

[Alk8944]

Obviously about half of the responders failed to notice the OP stated the problem is with Win. 124 FMJFP, not the LSWC!

If the jacketed bullets are sticking in the throat it is because the barrel has a short throat. Contact Kel-Tec and discuss it with them. I wouldn't be amazed if they simply send you a replacement barrel! Then, maybe not.

Do not trim your brass, that has nothing to do with the bullets sticking in the throat. I am amazed that anyone would even suggest such a thing, I guess there are few reloaders who responded!

 

[gwpercle]

Some guns have tight chambers, then , only .355 bullets will do. Jacketed bullets are sized .355" , lead bullets are typically .356 or .357 and that's where the problem comes in. The lead being oversized and soft, jams into the chamber/throat/rifiling. Some pistols are chambered with no throat, where the chamber ends, the rifling starts and that doesn't help at all. Pull hard and the case may come out with the soft oversized slug stuck in the barrel...that's a b**ch .
The answer is .355' diameter bullets ! OAL has nothing to do with it if the slugs too big.
I have a Walther P-38 that likes .357 " bullets but not every 9mm will handle it, most new guns will not.
Each gun , especially the 9mm , is a law unto itself with regards to handloads.
Gary

 

[rwsmith]

Obviously about half of the responders failed to notice the OP stated the problem is with Win. 124 FMJFP, not the LSWC!

If the jacketed bullets are sticking in the throat it is because the barrel has a short throat. Contact Kel-Tec and discuss it with them. I wouldn't be amazed if they simply send you a replacement barrel! Then, maybe not.

Do not trim your brass, that has nothing to do with the bullets sticking in the throat. I am amazed that anyone would even suggest such a thing, I guess there are few reloaders who responded!

Yeah,, the LSWCs won't feed. Since I want to use the gun for SD I thought it more important to get the JHPs and RNs working to cut right to the poor reliability problem. After I get this worked I may take up getting the SWCs to work as a hobby challenge. And I'm going to make sure the Shield doesn't have a similar problem, but not as bad. And if I want to I've got 1000 coated lead RN bullets on the way, too.

 

[Collo Rosso]

Obviously about half of the responders failed to notice the OP stated the problem is with Win. 124 FMJFP, not the LSWC!

If the jacketed bullets are sticking in the throat it is because the barrel has a short throat. Contact Kel-Tec and discuss it with them.

I had something similar to this with a CZ-75B. 115gr. ran fine, 124gr. you had to bump the back of the slide and 147gr. wouldn't chamber at all. That CZ had an extremely short throat. When you bumped a 124gr. closed and ejected it you could see the rifling marks on the bullet. Shortening the O.A.L. on 124gr. let me run them just fine. I needed to have the throat reamed had I wanted to run 147gr.
I'd call Kel-Tec too.

 

[sw dan]

9mm problem

hi folks,
i see this as a different problem. he states that he want this gun for sd, so why would anyone carry reloads in your sd gun, factory all the way..002

 

[Rule3]

hi folks,
i see this as a different problem. he states that he want this gun for sd, so why would anyone carry reloads in your sd gun, factory all the way..002

That is whole other topic that has been beat to death so many times it is just mush, don't even go there.

 

[Rule3]

Yeah,, the LSWCs won't feed. Since I want to use the gun for SD I thought it more important to get the JHPs and RNs working to cut right to the poor reliability problem. After I get this worked I may take up getting the SWCs to work as a hobby challenge. And I'm going to make sure the Shield doesn't have a similar problem, but not as bad. And I want to I've got 1000 coated lead RN bullets on the way, too.

OK, lets get this post clarified without mixing in two guns and other bullets. Do factory RN bullets run in the KT?

With the KT are you saying the LSWC will not feed and are getting stuck when you pull the slide back?

Yay or Nay?

 

[bigggbbruce]

The Ogive on the 124gr is further up the nose of the bullet. I betcha' 115gr run just fine.

I had an early Colt Commander in 9mm that no matter how short I set the 124's I could not get them short enough safely to work.

Get a barrel reamer and cut the lands further up.

 

[venomballistics]

you seat and crimp in the same step ... doncha

the seating operation moves the bullet.
the crimping operations stops movement.

In essence, your slamming on the brakes before you got the car there. the second you separate seat from crimp, your OAL runout drops to aerospace tolerances.

Do this, and kiss the random jam goodbye.

 

[K-framer]

Can't speak about Kel-Tecs specifically, but short-chambered 9mm pistols are all over the place. Short-chambered, over-sized barrels, etc. etc. I've no idea why it is so difficult for the various manufacturers of 9mm pistols to standardize these things, but there it is.

The solution is obvious - the OP will have to load all of the ammo for the Kel-Tec to a shorter COL. That means making sure that the loads will be light enough as to not be over-pressure with the shorter COL, as well as keeping said ammo segregated just for the Kel-Tec.

He could have a good gunsmith ream the Kel-Tec chamber deeper. That is another possible solution, but perhaps not worth it for such a pistol.

Problems like these are exactly why I gave up 9mm, as well as all other SA pistols and the cartridges they shoot. Too much of a PITA for me.