New to Reloading and Confused...

[allensm]

Sorry this is long.

I have an S&W .40 M&P. I'm just getting started with reloading (Noob Alert!) and the one thing I have learned from all I have read during the past few months is "GO SLOW." I have no problem with that and have read the following books:

- The ABCs of Reloading, 9th Edition
- Modern Reloading, Second Edition
- Sierra Rifle and Handgun Reloading Data
-Hornady of Cartridge Reloading
- Speer Reloading Manual #14
- Lyman 49th Reloading Handbook
- The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm/40 S&W

In addition, I have spent countless hours reading everything from every web site I could find in my searches. That search led me to the purchase of a Lee Classic Turret Press, .40 S&W dies, scales, and all the other goodies, many of which I probably didn't need right now (but I like toys so I bought them).

I also ordered what I believe to be anyway, the best components for me to start with. They are:

- A whole lot of once-fired brass
- Montana Gold .400 180 grain CMJ bullets
- CCI #500 Small Pistol Primers
- Powder (Win 231, HP-38 and WSF)

Various sources I have read say that the above components are favorites of many of the more experienced and a good start for the newly indoctrinated.

Researching load data for my first test loads has left me more than frustrated. I have looked in all the books I own, checked out all the manufacturer web sites and fine no load data really comparable to the components I have. It appears you have to but the bullet manufacturers bullets (if they publish data) and then with only a minimal subset of powders they chose to use in their testing. The same goes for the Powder manufacturers. In my case Hodgdon/Winchester owns the powder and makes bullets. Additionally, Montana Gold doesn’t publish data.

I understand about using like bullets regardless of manufacturer and should be able to use FMJ or TMJ data for CMJ. But, about all I am finding is JHP and a wide swing in O.A.L. that leads me to believe that I may encounter pressure problems by not keeping an eye on this. I just lack experience at this point to know how to judge it. Somce information I have been able to glean from printed sources include the following:

Source Bullet Powder Starting Load Grains Velocity fps Pressure C.U.P. Max Load Grains Velocity fps Pressure C.U.P. O.A.L
Lyman's 49 Edition 180 JHP 231 5.00 927 20,400 5.60 1015 22,800 1.115
Speer's 180 JHP 231 4.40 800 5.60 1000 1.135
Complete RM / Sierra 180 JHP 231 4.40 800 5.60 1000 1.125
Complete RM / Hodgdon 180 XTP 231 4.10 797 23,800 5.00 947 32,900 1.125
GlockTalk.com MG 180 JHP 231/HP38 5.20 1.125
Complete RM / Hodgdon 180 XTP HP38 4.10 797 23,800 5.00 947 32,900 1.125
Lyman's 49 Edition 180 JHP WSF 5.00 853 17,700 6.20 993 23,400 1.115
Speer's 180 JHP WSF 5.00 800 6.60 1050 1.135
Complete RM / Sierra 180 JHP WSF 5.00 800 6.60 1050 1.125
Complete RM / Hodgdon 180 XTP WSF 5.40 946 28,000 5.80 1013 32,900 1.125

I just want to learn to hand load and shoot my gun to it just goes bang and doesn’t end in pieces on the floor.
Can some maybe point me in the right direction or tell me what I may be doing right or wrong so far?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I usually trust the powder manufacturer and bullet manufacturer over any other published data because it's current. If you start low and work up you won't have your gun in pieces on the ground and it will go bang every time.

BTW, W231 and HP-38 are identical powders. Look in the Hodgdon load data site and you will see the numbers for both are exactly the same.

 

[alwslate]

My pre Hodgdon Winchester manual dated 2001 shows 40 S&W 180 JHP
at 4.0 - 5.0 grs W231, and 5.0 - 6.2 grs WSF.
200 gr FMJ at 4.0 - 4.7 W231 and 4.9 - 5.7 WSF. No OALs specified.

 

[2hawk]

Welcome to the Forum!

First off, congratulations on your new found hobby. You'll find it rewarding and worthwhile, but I can tell that first shot is going to be a leap of faith for you Don't worry, most of us have been there.

For the most definitive answer to you question, call the bullet manufacturer and see what they say. Can't beat the information from the horses mouth, as it were. But, if you need to work this out for yourself, here's what I think will work:

Your "wide variation in OAL" appears to be .010". for most of the data. The difference can be explained by the ogive of each bullet; a JHP with a huge HP will have an ogive with less curvature, and in profile will be more truncated than a JHP with a smaller cavity. If you have any factory HP ammo you can take one of your MG bullets and see how they compare. I'm betting that your component bullets will match the factory ammo most closely only when they are loaded longer.

So, my advice, and worth at least as much as you've paid for it, is to find the longest OAL that reliably cycles through your gun. Load some dummy rounds and see how they work. Loading longer than spec'd OAL will lower pressure, which in the .40 is not a bad thing, especially for a beginner. The .40S&W is a high pressure round, the only one I've had case blow-outs with, and loading slightly longer will often help feeding in many guns. I would start at 1.135" with the MG's you've got, and if they feed well go with that. Work up your loads and you'll be fine.

I started reloading with no prior experience or help (pre-internet, if you can imagine that!) on a Dillon 550B, and my first cartridge was the .40.
I didn't blow up any guns, I don't have any firearms related scars, still have all my fingers, and after 20 years the Dillon is still going strong, with toolheads for 40, 45, 38/357, 44mag, and .223. No regrets, except that I wish had more time to shoot and reload than life currently allows. Gotta start casting next!

Good luck, and give us a report on your first loads!

 

[Maximumbob54]

I would add a Redding G-Rx die to first run all your once fired brass through to make sure you get rid of any bulged cases. You will find a lot of brass shot through older Glocks and other guns that didn't have enough chamber support and the case will bulge out where it isn't supported. Once you have run all your brass through then you shouldn't need to worry about it unless you find more at your range. I save range pick up and once I have a pile I run it through the G-Rx die.

 

[SMSgt]

Yes, there's a plethora of contridicting load info out there. No two sources will every agree because of the variences in testing standards.

As for OAL, I tend to seat my bullets long. As long as they fit the mag, feed properly, and do not engage the riflig, I've never experienced a problem.

A load for a jacketed bullet of any design is good as long as it's for a particular weight. Likewise for lead. The powder doesn't know the difference between FMJs, HP, SWCs etc., only weight and lead versus jacketed.

I prefert the powder makers data, but always remember to start low and work up, regardless of data source. I started out with the Speer #9 reloading manual, which I still have. It's outdated as far as powders (many no long available) but the tips and info are still good.

 

[Mikey217]

I ran into a similar conundrum with my Ranier plated bullets. So, the Ranier site says, "If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load, and you may use published load data found in reputable reloading manuals." And that's what I did. There was a large variance between max load according to manufacturer data, so I picked the avg middle of the range from several powder and bullet manufacturer's load data (I have several powder and bullet maker's books, but I also have "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm/.40 S&W", which contains all the data from all the manufacturers in one book". I only made small batches of 5 rds for testing. That middle of the range load gave me a pretty good spout of fire out the front of my M&P 40c. So much so that I couldn't get a good chrony reading of the velocity. The next batch I reduced by one grain and that put me in the ball park - avg 937fps with the 155gr bullets. That's with 6.4gr of Power Pistol. So the next batch, I've increased by .4gr to 6.8gr, and I'll see how that does. My goal with the 155gr bullet is about 1200fps.

I guess my point is that even if the load is a little hot (I started with 7.4gr of Power Pistol for the 155gr bullet), the M&P shouldn't blow up on you. And also that it takes a little trial and error to get settled in on a load with the plated bullets. Once you find that load, though, it's a pretty good feeling! It's pretty cool to know that the bullets you're firing were made by you!

I hope this helps!

 

[TrapperL]

Welcome to the world of reloading. I think one issue that most beginners don't understand is that the reloading manuals are a GUIDE, not an absolute. No two guns are alike and what is hot in your gun maybe too much or not hot at all in mine. Rifles can commonly vary in velocity up to 200'ps with the same load. So I'd suggest for starters loading a little below max and don't go any shorter(OAL)than the published data. Most of my pistols like the ammo towards the long end of the OAL and most like it just off of max powder loading. As I remember, Lee stated the same thing in his manual.
Had you asked, I would have suggested a different powder for a beginner. I would have suggested a slower burning powder as it makes it a lot harder to get double charges and any small OOPs are generally not dangerous. I would have suggested a lighter bullet for the same reason- more room for error without issues. But the most important thing you need to learn is safety and developing safe and smart reloading techniques. NEVER have more than one project on the bench. NEVER have more than one can of powder on the bench. NEVER reload unless you can focus 100% on the task. ALWAYS check the case before seating the bullet with a flashlight- you're looking to make sure the powder level is identical and there's powder in the case. Before beginning, make sure to check that the right components are on the bench. Once checked, check again against a recipe that you will write down before hand. KEEP a logbook of everything you load with all of the information. There are pages available online that you can copy to enter the info. MTM has a great logbook.
Just keep your eyes open, use yer head, and you'll be fine. Just be safe and when in doubt- don't.

 

[Rule3]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Thank you for doing a whole lot of homework and research before posting. It is great to see. Thank you also for your service!!

Looking at the picture of your bullet the 180 gr MG CMJ

https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/Images/320x200/40-CMJ-180.jpg

It appears to be a flat nose. So I would use any of the data in your manuals for the bullet that looks as close to it.

But wait, the Speer and Hornady manuals do not list HP38/W 231 for that bullet?? Now WHAT? They did not test your powder for the 40 SW. Why? As much as I love HP38 and use a lot of it there are some better powders for the 40 SW, not that HP38 is bad. I use it for almost everything.

Go to the Hodgdon data only and you get a range of

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com
180 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HP-38 .400" 1.125" 4.1 797 23,800 PSI 5.0 947 32,900 PSI

So load a dummy round(no powder or primer) take the barrel out of your gun and seat a bullet to 1.125, taper crimp it.

Drop the round in the barrel, it should fall in with a "plunk" and seat fully in the barrel. Turn the barrel over it should fall right out. If it doesn't seat the bullet a tad more to 1.120 (no more!)

Load a few test bullets with the min charge of 4.1 ( I would go 4.5 as Hodgdons data is pretty low (anemic). Shoot your test rounds. If all is well then you are good to go!

Let us know!

 

[carpriver]

good info

there has bee a lot of good information given. I would echo that information. I used several different sets of load data when I first started reloading always starting with the minimum powder load and worked up from there until I found what I considered the best load for that particular gun. I also tend to use the max or close to max oal. My choice of powders are Accurate #7 for 40 cal and AA#5 for 38 cal 9 MM and 45 ACP. Start low and work up. work safe. 100 % concentration. one load data sheet on the bench, one powder and one bullet on the bench. and No distractions. When I am working a new load I load about twenty rounds I mark the primer with a sharpie colored pen and mark my load data sheet with the colored sharpie. I live a distance from the range and when I go to the range the do my testing and training; that way i can check the brass for pressure issues when I get home I make note also of the ammo tested. I also use the Lee factory crimping die I feel I helps with accuracy. if using the lee decapping die that will resize the brass, as will the crimping die. be safe welcome to the forum and to the world of reloading.

 

[Granddad]

Sounds like you are off to a great start. Thoughts: 1. plunk test with your barrel and MG dummy round. Try to shoot for an OAL of 1.125 (it always worked for me with many bullet designs), 2. WSF is a very good choice for the 40 & I'd pick it above 231, 3. if you use WSF just work up from the start load published by Hodgdon if in doubt.

 

[Engineer1911]

The Engineer's simple answer

Reloading ammo is like driving your car -- stay in the middle of your lane!! So find a load for your bullet weight, your style of bullet, with the powder you bought. Stick with a mid-range powder load, not the minimum, NOT the maximum and you will be safe.

Chose you load, load 5 rounds, and go shoot them. You have shot factory 180 grain bullets? Did your gun cycle with your reloads -- eject the empty case and load the next round from the magazine? Do your reloads recoil the same, less, more (not good) than factory ammo? Where do the empty cases land, closer, the same, or farther away (not good) than factory ammo?

If you answered these questions yes or the same, you have a good load. Proceed with care and pay attention to what you are doing. Reloading the first 100 rounds is the hardest thing you will ever do because you have no experience, no comfort level, first time event that takes over an hour, and you are positive of nothing. How did your first date go? Your still alive, right? Enjoy your new hobby.

 

[M&PUSER]

Make sure that you have a Case Gage in your inventory of reloading tools and use it OFTEN. Here's the kind I use: Dillon Handgun Case Gages: Reloading Machine Accessories . "IF it fits, it ships."

Also, pick only one powder for now [I like W-231] and find a load you want to try for your bullet weight of choice. Work up slowly until you find the one your pistol barrel likes. DO NOT EXCEED THE MAXIMUM load. Shoot a few thousand rounds. Then try something different if you want. Right now I'd say you're at maximum data overload. Too much data can cause analysis paralysis. KEEP IT SIMPLE! At least for the present. Have fun.

 

[allensm]

Everyone: Thanks for all the constructive and encouraging feedback. I think this has helped give me the confidence that I needed that I have been going in the right direction and doing what I should be at this stage.

I will heed all the advice given and apply it to my further reloading efforts and report back with my results. (As I have seen with many other new reloader posts it seems you just HAVE to tell someone that you did it and still have all your fingers!)

 

[MrApathy]

WSF is good stuff in 40sw I used it alot with 180gr FMJ
used max load 6.2gr 1.125" COL was more accurate than me

you look to be pretty well set for load data and advice from the net

 

[allensm]

Well I finally had a chance to go and shoot some test rounds and one other trip for another 300+- rounds and all I have to say is WOW!

I built 10 rounds of each powder (231, HP-38 and WSF) in .1 increments starting at the bottom and going to about mid range. I was still a bit spooked about going to close to max at this point and figured the low to mid range loads should do me just fine. I shot each bunch slowly at 25’ and made comments on each target when I was finished. I later measured groupings accounting for a shot here and there that I knew I flinched or did something stupid that threw the groupings off. All said and done most of the groupings were in the 2.25-3.25” range. This is not particularly great but I felt good about it since I am relatively new to shooting after 30+ years. Practicing weekly should narrow that in a bit over time.

My next step is to try Precision Delta 165 and 180 grain FMJs (I have 1,000 of each on order now) to see how they do with this powder combination. It will allow me to save about $0.07 per built round which translates into cheaper play time. I figure you can’t go wrong with that. I do have to say I like the idea of the Montana Gold CMJs with no lead exposure.

I am also looking into getting some Trijicon sights to assist me seeing the sights better. These factory sights are a bit on the dim side and even painting them over with Testors (have tried a few different color combinations) the still make it a bit hard to see on occasion. I trust the Trijicon sights make the difference I hope to see.

Next step is to build up the rest of the case of MG 180 grain CMJs and start shooting them up. I average about 200-300 per range session and plan on trying to get out there weekly to improve my skills.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank all of you that offered advice and encouragement while I was trying to get started. Sometimes a gentle nudge is what’s needed to get started.

Thanks again,
Allen

 

[Skip Sackett]

Allen, Semper Fi, Gyrene!
Oorah!

What is the firearm you are shooting these out of? Depending, it can make a big difference in the type of components I suggest, especially for a newbie.

I have suggested HP-38/W231 for a starting powder in the 40S&W but not at the bottom end. Stuck bullets can cause a BUNCH of trouble in a semi-auto, mostly because we like to pull the trigger fast and a squib can be followed by a full power load. If loading for a semi-auto, I never go below midrange. If that won't give me the performance I want, I switch powders.

Depending on barrel type, you can shoot cheaper than the jacketed bullets allow.

At any rate, for me, W231/HP-38 is the absolute FASTEST I would EVER go in any weight 40S&W load, EVER!


FWIW

 

[Rule3]

Allen,

I shoot the PD bullets in 9mm and 40 SW. They are excellent. For the 40 SW the 165 gr is the bullet to use (JMO) I have been using Power Pistol which is the go to powder for Hornady and Speer likes it also.

Others have their favorite powders but for the 40SW I have settled on PP.

 

[allensm]

I'm shooting an S&W .40 M&P.

The build make up I settled on for now is as follows:

4.20 grains 231, CCI SP primers, 1.125 OAL
4.20 grains HP-38, CCI SP primers, 1.125 OAL
5.50 grains WSF, CCI SP primers, 1.125 OAL

These seem to shoot fine with no visible pressure problems on the shot primers. Brass ejects well, no noticeable smoke of flash.

I may up these in a bit towards mid range as I load more and feel more comfortable with loading. I take my time between shots to make sure something is actually leaving the pistol in the case of squibs. I weigh about every 5-10 rounds and visually inspect each throw to make sure it is setting about right in the brass before seating the bullet. I also measure OAL on about every 5-15 rounds. The powder weight and OAL are staying spot on.

I'm just shooting at paper so performance isn't any more than me hitting the spot. It seems to be working fine and my biggest obstacle is to make sure I don't drink coffee before shooting.

I did a LOT of reading before I started this venture and don't see any reason for me to go above 231/HP-38 in burn rate. WSF is a little below these. They measure well with my equipment, shoot well and pretty clean, and aren't smoky.

Jacketed is fine. I don't want to go lead and the range I shoot at won't allow it anyway. I don't want the exposure and if I can get my rounds down to $.13 give or take that is a LOT cheaper than buying 1,000 lots of WWB at the cheapest source I can find. I like the Montana Gold and may go back to them but wanted to try the Precision Delta since they have good review. I haven't shot enough to develop a brand loyalty yet.

I appreciate your feedback. It can only make me a better reloader and shooter in the long run.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Plated is the way to go for me in this caliber. I too have an M&P in 40S&W and I load for one that is being carried by a local cop, for practice only of course.

My current load employs another great powder for the 40S&W, Hodgdon's Longshot. The bullets I use are either Berry's or Ranier's, there isn't a ton of difference between the two and they are MUCH cheaper than any jacketed bullets out there.

My load is a book load with a 165gr Plated bullet. The average velocity is very close to the posted data from data.hodgdon.com from the full size model M&P that I have.

One thing I have not done yet is to load up some of the 357Sig I have for that gun. I bought a barrel for it and the magazines will work but I have not had/made time to do anything with it!

Longshot gives you lower pressures and higher velocities than most other suitable powders for the 40S&W, which might be the reason Rule 3 chose PP. Very similar in usages.....


FWIW and I hope this helps!