New twist on the bear ammo question

mikerjf

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
2,197
Reaction score
3,545
Imagine stabbing someone with a 1" dowel. Might hurt, probably not going to penetrate. Apply the same force to an ice pick and it will definitely penetrate. Just a matter of surface area the force is applied to.

So I got to wondering, vis-a-vis shooting bears in the head. Seems like it is not just the sectional density of the bullet that would count, to penetrate the skull is a combination of the muzzle energy and the surface area that muzzle energy is spread over. Is it possible that a 357 might have an advantage because it focuses it's energy on a smaller area, thus being more likely to penetrate the skull?

Decided to calculate "Muzzle energy per square inch" that a specific ME and caliber yields. Here's a few numbers in descending order.

12980 30 Carbine, 110g FMJ @ 1990fps
10604 Buffalo Bore 44M +P+ Outdoorsman
6768 Buffalo Bore 357 Outdoorsman
6413 12ga 437g slug @ 1800fps
3696 Buffalo Bore 38Sp Outdoorsman, from 2" bll

I find it interesting that the carbine rates so high and the 12ga so low.
 
Register to hide this ad
My bear in the woods load is PPU 300gr. FPSP. 44 Magnum. I have never seen a bear in the woods and if needed, I hope it works.
 
Muzzle energy is NOT the key value. The important value is momentum, Mass X velocity. Ammo makers used to advertise that value but Kinetic Energy is flashier and sells more bullets. KE can be burned off in heat, sound, noise, in addition to tissue damage; any kind of energy loss. Momentum is conserved. Redo those figures in terms of momentum per surface area and you will see what you would expect.
 
Last edited:
Having tons of experience shooting deer with 1oz 12ga slugs, I would think the slug would shatter the skull rather than penetrate straight through like a smaller bullet.
 
My question is, is the bear pooping in the woods at the time of said shooting. And if this is the case, why are you shooting a bear that is pooping in said woods, it is not hurting you. My advice would be to leave bears in the woods that are pooping.......or not pooping. Just leave them alone. If you disturbed said bear that was pooping in said woods and absolutely have to shoot the bear then I would do what Bella Twin did and used a 22 and shoot it in the head multiple times. Just make sure you hit it in the right place.


:rolleyes:
 
So I got to wondering, vis-a-vis shooting bears in the head. Seems like it is not just the sectional density of the bullet that would count, to penetrate the skull is a combination of the muzzle energy and the surface area that muzzle energy is spread over. Is it possible that a 357 might have an advantage because it focuses it's energy on a smaller area, thus being more likely to penetrate the skull?

I think that you don't understand what sectional density is. It IS a comparison of momentum to the surface area over which it is applied. Note that momentum is used rather than energy.

Oops. It is a comparison of MASS to the surface area over which it is applied. Multiply by velocity to get momentum.
 
Last edited:
I see his point, a larger bullet has less of a chance of penetrating. If the larger bullet bounces off and the smaller one penetrates regardless of momentum, which one will be more effective?

But then again, the higher momentum may have a greater chance of busting thru.
 
Imagine stabbing someone with a 1" dowel. Might hurt, probably not going to penetrate. Apply the same force to an ice pick and it will definitely penetrate. Just a matter of surface area the force is applied to.
.

Use blocks of wood or metal plates of different thicknesses. Shoot with .357M and .44M having the same speed and see which has the best penetration. Larry
 
I understand this is really a hypothetical conversation starter and I’m all for it.

Data can be manipulated to infer various outcomes and it can be fun and interesting to discuss taken within context.
I’ve only seen two bears in my life and both were black bears minding their own business at a distance
Having said that, if I ever were to hypothetically find myself in the position of having to stop a charging jaw popping Grizzly Bear I would want something more than a 30 carbine.
If anyone wishes to go out and attempt to stop a charging jaw popping grizzly bear with a 30 carbine I guess they can.
I’d even go as far as to say they would have the rest of their life to prove that it would work
 
Last edited:
Numbers are numbers.

Actual shootings are facts.

I don't go hunting bear with a 1.21 Caliber, ping pong gun !!
 
Last edited:
The .30 Carbine would just bounce off the skull.

It lacks power and sectional density.

The key factor for the rest of your choices is bullet construction.

The .44 Magnum with a strongly constructed bullet is your best bet.

If you want to go shotgun........the slug would probably be too soft to be effective.

If you want effective shotgun........use #6 shot.

It will take out the eyes and nose and the bear will be unable to find you.

:)
 
Folks in Alaska are reported to favor the Brenneke Slug.
When you see an Alaskan Game Warden or LE go into the bush where there may be bears they are usually carrying a Shotgun.
I have shot Deer with the old school American Slug which appeared to be pretty soft, pure lead or close to it.
 
I've read plenty of accounts of penetration, lethality, and shot placement. As noted above with the ".275 Rigby" --- better known as the 7mm Mauser --- shot placement is still king. The shoulder busters give you better lethality on an imperfect shot, but there's still no substitute for hitting the CNS. Alaskan Natives regularly take polar bear with .223s, for example. I wonder what they think of everyone else and their semi 12g slug guns, .375s, and .44 snubs?

Not to divert into politically incorrect territory, but as a man of European descent I note a tendency of those from that continent who hunt outside the homeland to pack far more 'gun' than the more pragmatic (or simply poorer) locals. Heard tales of missionaries and others in Africa who are amazed at what the locals take with .22LR because it is all they can afford to shoot.
 
.357 Magnum bear load? Maybe, it’s a bit too hot for medium-frame revolvers currently.

Read about Bella Twin and her grizzly-bear takedown with a single aimed shot with a .22 Long, plus a few more rounds for good measure.
 

Attachments

  • D69CBD83-6A2C-43A6-9148-D3837AB5869D.jpg
    D69CBD83-6A2C-43A6-9148-D3837AB5869D.jpg
    67.8 KB · Views: 26
Buy some skulls, maybe fill them with a gelatin to simulate brain tissue, and experiment away.

Black Bear Skulls for sale by www.hideandfur.com

There are actually videos of this on YouTube. Guy. Ompares a 44mag to 10mm for brown bear skull penetration. Whole thing is silly. It’s a dried out bleached skull. No skin, no muscle. I can’t speak to polar, brown or grizzly bears but killing a black bear is not that difficult in my experience. While I haven’t done it I would think a good FMJ in most self defense calibers (9mm and up) would penetrate a black bear skull. Grizzly skull might subject bullet to a ricochet effect because of shape. Hope I never have to find out.
 
Folks in Alaska are reported to favor the Brenneke Slug.
When you see an Alaskan Game Warden or LE go into the bush where there may be bears they are usually carrying a Shotgun.
I have shot Deer with the old school American Slug which appeared to be pretty soft, pure lead or close to it.

Brenneke didn't do real great on penetration in this test.

It is a lot better than the old school rifled slug though.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkBZvLn86Y[/ame]
 
Back
Top