Ben Cartwright SASS
US Veteran
Be happy you don't live in Massachusetts, here are a few snippets from an editorial blog on the Goal (Gun Owners Action League) website. ( BLOG.GOAL.ORG: Civil Rights Equals Detainment?! So Says the Federal Court )
It is common knowledge that the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court stripped Commonwealth citizens of their Second Amendment civil rights in the infamous 1976 case Commonwealth V. Davis (369 Mass. 886).
If the gun laws here in Massachusetts are not confusing enough, just try and follow the court rulings. Most recently a case has come out of a local federal court that has gun owners confused and angry.
This most recent case is Schubert v. City of Springfield (United States District Court Civil No. 07-30033). In this case Mr. Schubert was crossing a street during mid-day and was held at gun point by a police officer. The officer had claimed that he had seen a handgun under Mr. Schubert’s jacket. In legal terms the officer claimed to be conducting what is called a Terry Stop. During the stop, the officer detained Mr. Schubert for around ten minutes while he supposedly tried to verify the License to Carry (LTC). According to court records, the officer was not able to validate the LTC and as a result released Mr. Schubert but confiscated the LTC and the firearm. Both items were recovered at the police station later on. As a result of the incident, Mr. Schubert filed a civil rights case in federal court. The particular filings did not include any Second Amendment claims.
On March 4, 2009 Judge Michael A. Ponsor heard a motion to dismiss from the city. Judge Ponsor was born in Chicago and appointed to his position on the federal court by President Bill Clinton. That same day, the Judge gave an oral ruling followed by one in writing. The Judge stated in his ruling the following:
“I find on the undisputed facts of this case that the police officer had the right under the Terry decision to stop and make inquiry of the plaintiff once he recognized that he was walking in public and carrying a firearm…”
“…I believe the police officer is not violating the Constitution by confronting the individual, disarming the individual, and requiring the individual to produce identification and a license.”
“I don’t believe that the police officer crossed the constitutional line by drawing his firearm to protect himself and even pointing it at the plaintiff…”
“I find that the police officer once he was given the license was not required to accept it on its face…”
Judge Michael A. Ponsor
“I guess my question is what is a middle aged guy with a suit carrying a briefcase doing packing a handgun and walking around downtown Springfield? Is this becoming Dodge City here where everybody’s going to be carrying firearms?”
“Every time anybody’s at a chicken place and somebody pulls out a handgun we’ll have bullets flying in 16 different directions and its mutual destruction and we’re really two seconds away from gun firing breaking out. I’m really, really, really bothered by that.”
“I’m really appalled to hear that that many people are carrying guns.”
“You have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn’t mean you have the right to be free from an inquiry about what you’re doing.”
“I find on the undisputed facts of this case that the police officer had the right under the Terry decision to stop and make inquiry of the plaintiff once he recognized that he was walking in public and carrying a firearm that was visible to him from where he was seated in his squad car.”
“The burden is upon the applicant to produce substantial evidence that he is a proper person to hold a license to carry a firearm.”
Even with all of these absurd rulings and statements by the court concern our civil rights in earlier years there has certainly been some sound state court rulings that should have had some leverage on the Schubert decision.
Commonwealth vs. Samuel H. Nowells 390 Mass. 621 September 12, 1983 - December 20, 1983
“The ownership or possession of a handgun (or a rifle) is not a crime and standing alone creates no probable cause.”
Commonwealth vs. Marcos A. Rojas. 403 Mass. 483 October 5, 1988 - December 8, 1988
“We note that possession of a handgun is not per se illegal.”
Commonwealth vs. Paul R. Couture. 407 Mass. 178 December 6, 1989 - April 9, 1990
“The mere possession of a handgun was not sufficient to give rise to a reasonable suspicion that the defendant was illegally carrying that gun, and the stop was therefore improper under Fourth Amendment principles.”
Case after case in Massachusetts the courts have maintained that mere possession of a firearm is not enough evidence to justify suspicion, search or detainment. The problem here is that the case was filed as a civil rights case in federal court and unfortunately some federal courts are still stuck in Civil War Era civil rights denial.
One interesting statement that appeared in the Schubert ruling was a footnote #2 on page three: “Second, Plaintiff’s right is secured, not restricted, by the state licensing statute, Mass. Gen. Laws.ch. 140, § 131.” This is a very peculiar statement since the licensing system in Massachusetts is based on Commonwealth v. Davis that told us we citizens of Massachusetts have no such rights. A law student could probably do a whole thesis on that one.
So now that your eyes are glazed over you are probably asking the question, where does this leave us as lawful gun owners? The answer is, good question.
From all of the case research and history here, it all boils down to this. We have a federal court system that sort of recognizes our civil rights as gun owners but does not feel it is a problem if we are detained and questioned for simply exercising our rights. On the other hand we have a state court system in Massachusetts that does not recognize our civil right to keep and bear arms, but has strongly ruled that we should not be detained or questioned for mere possession of a firearm.
It is common knowledge that the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court stripped Commonwealth citizens of their Second Amendment civil rights in the infamous 1976 case Commonwealth V. Davis (369 Mass. 886).
If the gun laws here in Massachusetts are not confusing enough, just try and follow the court rulings. Most recently a case has come out of a local federal court that has gun owners confused and angry.
This most recent case is Schubert v. City of Springfield (United States District Court Civil No. 07-30033). In this case Mr. Schubert was crossing a street during mid-day and was held at gun point by a police officer. The officer had claimed that he had seen a handgun under Mr. Schubert’s jacket. In legal terms the officer claimed to be conducting what is called a Terry Stop. During the stop, the officer detained Mr. Schubert for around ten minutes while he supposedly tried to verify the License to Carry (LTC). According to court records, the officer was not able to validate the LTC and as a result released Mr. Schubert but confiscated the LTC and the firearm. Both items were recovered at the police station later on. As a result of the incident, Mr. Schubert filed a civil rights case in federal court. The particular filings did not include any Second Amendment claims.
On March 4, 2009 Judge Michael A. Ponsor heard a motion to dismiss from the city. Judge Ponsor was born in Chicago and appointed to his position on the federal court by President Bill Clinton. That same day, the Judge gave an oral ruling followed by one in writing. The Judge stated in his ruling the following:
“I find on the undisputed facts of this case that the police officer had the right under the Terry decision to stop and make inquiry of the plaintiff once he recognized that he was walking in public and carrying a firearm…”
“…I believe the police officer is not violating the Constitution by confronting the individual, disarming the individual, and requiring the individual to produce identification and a license.”
“I don’t believe that the police officer crossed the constitutional line by drawing his firearm to protect himself and even pointing it at the plaintiff…”
“I find that the police officer once he was given the license was not required to accept it on its face…”
Judge Michael A. Ponsor
“I guess my question is what is a middle aged guy with a suit carrying a briefcase doing packing a handgun and walking around downtown Springfield? Is this becoming Dodge City here where everybody’s going to be carrying firearms?”
“Every time anybody’s at a chicken place and somebody pulls out a handgun we’ll have bullets flying in 16 different directions and its mutual destruction and we’re really two seconds away from gun firing breaking out. I’m really, really, really bothered by that.”
“I’m really appalled to hear that that many people are carrying guns.”
“You have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn’t mean you have the right to be free from an inquiry about what you’re doing.”
“I find on the undisputed facts of this case that the police officer had the right under the Terry decision to stop and make inquiry of the plaintiff once he recognized that he was walking in public and carrying a firearm that was visible to him from where he was seated in his squad car.”
“The burden is upon the applicant to produce substantial evidence that he is a proper person to hold a license to carry a firearm.”
Even with all of these absurd rulings and statements by the court concern our civil rights in earlier years there has certainly been some sound state court rulings that should have had some leverage on the Schubert decision.
Commonwealth vs. Samuel H. Nowells 390 Mass. 621 September 12, 1983 - December 20, 1983
“The ownership or possession of a handgun (or a rifle) is not a crime and standing alone creates no probable cause.”
Commonwealth vs. Marcos A. Rojas. 403 Mass. 483 October 5, 1988 - December 8, 1988
“We note that possession of a handgun is not per se illegal.”
Commonwealth vs. Paul R. Couture. 407 Mass. 178 December 6, 1989 - April 9, 1990
“The mere possession of a handgun was not sufficient to give rise to a reasonable suspicion that the defendant was illegally carrying that gun, and the stop was therefore improper under Fourth Amendment principles.”
Case after case in Massachusetts the courts have maintained that mere possession of a firearm is not enough evidence to justify suspicion, search or detainment. The problem here is that the case was filed as a civil rights case in federal court and unfortunately some federal courts are still stuck in Civil War Era civil rights denial.
One interesting statement that appeared in the Schubert ruling was a footnote #2 on page three: “Second, Plaintiff’s right is secured, not restricted, by the state licensing statute, Mass. Gen. Laws.ch. 140, § 131.” This is a very peculiar statement since the licensing system in Massachusetts is based on Commonwealth v. Davis that told us we citizens of Massachusetts have no such rights. A law student could probably do a whole thesis on that one.
So now that your eyes are glazed over you are probably asking the question, where does this leave us as lawful gun owners? The answer is, good question.
From all of the case research and history here, it all boils down to this. We have a federal court system that sort of recognizes our civil rights as gun owners but does not feel it is a problem if we are detained and questioned for simply exercising our rights. On the other hand we have a state court system in Massachusetts that does not recognize our civil right to keep and bear arms, but has strongly ruled that we should not be detained or questioned for mere possession of a firearm.
