I, like I'm sure many of you, disdain the chore of scrubbing bores when I get home from a range session. I have been reloading for almost 40 years, and have multiple molds and lubes. I had tried plated bullets, they work, but at a cost. I have gas-check molds also. Again, they work, but at a cost. I have tried liquid and cookie-cutter lubes. Lousy. I have tried all the powders I can think of. I have about 120 lbs of wheel weights, and always wanted to cast them into a good SWC load for 38 special. A friend, who is a gun smith, said he liked trail boss, and had no leading. So I tried 3.0 grains behind a Lee 150 grain plain base SWC. 50 rounds fired in each gun, Yep, NO leading. At all. I'm ecstatic. Gonna try it now in 9mm for my third Generation Smiths, but if this is the only one that works I'm still happy. I think the ultimate test will be my security six. It collects lead even if you don't take it out of the range bag! lol The load I just described was shot from 2 and 4 inch model 64's, and four inch 10's, heavy and tapered barrel.
NO LEADING with Trail Boss
- Thread starter dkp9782
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That's probably because the bullet isn't going fast enough to melt anything.
Titegroups
Member
True, I used to shoot cowboy matches and used lots of trail boss, at 650fps you could shoot an enormous number of rounds with almost no leading. The bores in my vaqueros must have been pretty smooth not to accumulate lead from abrasion alone. They could market it as keeping bores free of fouling and give it another name.
Possibly, but I've been shooting 2.7 to 3.0 of Bullseye, same bullet, terrible lead. Light loads Unique, same. Over the years have pushed and chrony'ed hundreds of loads from mouse fart to scorchers, and this is the first with no lead. I shoot various SWC's, RNL's, DEWC's HBWC's , with many different alloys, always the same results. And if it is super slow, ( I haven't run it across the Chrony yet), I'm still happy. I can shoot a lot, and spend not so much. (And I dunno, them dirt clods are dying at the first hit! LOL)
Dragon88
Member
Sounds like your bullets are the issue, not the powders.
Alk8944
US Veteran
dkp9782,
Different powders have verying lubricating properties. I would bet that one lubricant you haven't used is Saeco Green. You can either buy it from Redding or make it yourself. For the price of about 2 sticks of commercial lube you can make about about 2 1/4 pounds, or 18 sticks. They sell it for $7.50 per stick.
You can easily make it yourself. You need 1pound of beeswax, one pound of petrolatum (petroleum jelly) and 1/2 pound STP. If you want to color it go to a crafts store that sells candle making materials and buy candle dye in whatever color you want, if you want. You can get the beeswax at the craft store, about $20/lb, or contact the people below and you can probably get it for $4-6/lb.
Melt the beeswax, petrolatum and STP in a double boiler, or very carefully in a 2 qt. sauce pan. Start with about 4 oz. STP until you can chill a small sample in cold water and the consistency is where you want it. If too hard, add more STP until the lube is as soft as you want it. The STP is original "STP Oil Treatment". For some reason many people need to have this explained believe it or not.
It's up to you to decide how to get the lube into your sizer, but a mold for hollow sticks isn't too hard to make. Go to the Cast Boollets web site and you can find lube mold ideas with a little searching.
This is a beekeepers site in the Omaha area where you should be able to get beeswax. The last I bought in Salt Lake City a year or two ago was either $4 or $5 a pound.
Betterbee, Inc. Your Partners in Better Beekeeping. Beekeeping Supplies and Equipment
If you get leading in a revolver with this lube then you have a real problem. I shoot full power .357, .44, and .41 Magnums with virtually no leading. What there is can be removed by dry-brushing with a 1 step oversize bronze brush as soon as reasonable after shooting.
Don't buy into the harder is better lie!. One of the major reasons people get bad leading with cast bullets is they buy generic size commercial bullets that are much too hard. Commercial bullets are also "lubed", and I use the term gratuitously, with "lubricants" that are designed to be pretty and stay on the bullets through shipping. They do not lubricate and it would be as well if they would ship their bullets un-sized and dry, they would work just about the same!
Even for the magnums you don't need anything harder than 12-15 Brinnell. Size to cylinder throat diameter, not bore diameter, use Saeco Green, and your leading issues should be gone. Use wheelweight alloy with 2-3% added Tin, do not heat-treat or water drop your bullets, it is a waste of time and energy.
Different powders have verying lubricating properties. I would bet that one lubricant you haven't used is Saeco Green. You can either buy it from Redding or make it yourself. For the price of about 2 sticks of commercial lube you can make about about 2 1/4 pounds, or 18 sticks. They sell it for $7.50 per stick.
You can easily make it yourself. You need 1pound of beeswax, one pound of petrolatum (petroleum jelly) and 1/2 pound STP. If you want to color it go to a crafts store that sells candle making materials and buy candle dye in whatever color you want, if you want. You can get the beeswax at the craft store, about $20/lb, or contact the people below and you can probably get it for $4-6/lb.
Melt the beeswax, petrolatum and STP in a double boiler, or very carefully in a 2 qt. sauce pan. Start with about 4 oz. STP until you can chill a small sample in cold water and the consistency is where you want it. If too hard, add more STP until the lube is as soft as you want it. The STP is original "STP Oil Treatment". For some reason many people need to have this explained believe it or not.
It's up to you to decide how to get the lube into your sizer, but a mold for hollow sticks isn't too hard to make. Go to the Cast Boollets web site and you can find lube mold ideas with a little searching.
This is a beekeepers site in the Omaha area where you should be able to get beeswax. The last I bought in Salt Lake City a year or two ago was either $4 or $5 a pound.
Betterbee, Inc. Your Partners in Better Beekeeping. Beekeeping Supplies and Equipment
If you get leading in a revolver with this lube then you have a real problem. I shoot full power .357, .44, and .41 Magnums with virtually no leading. What there is can be removed by dry-brushing with a 1 step oversize bronze brush as soon as reasonable after shooting.
Don't buy into the harder is better lie!. One of the major reasons people get bad leading with cast bullets is they buy generic size commercial bullets that are much too hard. Commercial bullets are also "lubed", and I use the term gratuitously, with "lubricants" that are designed to be pretty and stay on the bullets through shipping. They do not lubricate and it would be as well if they would ship their bullets un-sized and dry, they would work just about the same!
Even for the magnums you don't need anything harder than 12-15 Brinnell. Size to cylinder throat diameter, not bore diameter, use Saeco Green, and your leading issues should be gone. Use wheelweight alloy with 2-3% added Tin, do not heat-treat or water drop your bullets, it is a waste of time and energy.
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I do not even cast and the above is really interesting. Good information!
Not trying to burst your bubble, but I don't think TB in 9mm would be very effective, Heck Hodgdon doesn't even list a load. Not saying it will not work but 9mm is a lot higher pressure/velocity round to get good performance and even cycle the gun.
Alk8944
US Veteran
I agree. Trail Boss shouldn't be compressed to start. Just guessing, because I am too lazy to go downstairs and measure & weigh a charge in a 9mm just to be to be curious. I would bet you can't get more that 2.5 gr in the case. Purely guessing, but I would bet you wouldn't get 750 fps, and generally you need at least 1025 for the average 9mm pistol to even come close to cycle.
DO NOT try TB with a jacketed bullet in your 9mm, unless you have a strong desire to see how difficult it is to remove a stuck jacketed bullet.
(Thanks 55)
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I agree with most of what Alk has posted and it is good information BUT I would add several things to think about.
Hard or soft, a lead bullet must fit. If it fits, hardness makes little to no difference until you are on one end of the spectrum or another.
The right fit and too soft pushed too hard, leading. The right fit and too hard pushed too light, possible leading, powder dependent.
There is no reason to make your own lube, none. I have done it, and been successful with it, but there is no reason to spend the time making your own when there are others out there that will work if your bullet has an adequate grease groove. Most of the Lee standard moulds, in my opinion, don't have an adequate groove. Even the double groove designs don't have enough lube to aid in keeping lead to a minimum. Again, just my opinion.
I used to use a lube of beeswax and a liquid alox, White Label Lube-Liquid X Lube, because I had 4 quarts left over. It worked but involved too much time to do. Maybe when I am retired, I will take it up again.
If you want the best bullet lube around, at the cheapest prices, go here: White Label Lube
If you have a heater on your luber/sizer get the Carnuba Red, if not, BAC is the way to go for pistol cartridges. I have never used their 50/50 nor their 2500+ but, I have never had a bad product from them either.
p.s. Not affiliated with White Label Lube at all other than a customer!
p.p.s. Hobby Lobby has sheets of Beeswax too if you want to go that route. It is around $10 for a good sized chunk.
Hard or soft, a lead bullet must fit. If it fits, hardness makes little to no difference until you are on one end of the spectrum or another.
The right fit and too soft pushed too hard, leading. The right fit and too hard pushed too light, possible leading, powder dependent.
There is no reason to make your own lube, none. I have done it, and been successful with it, but there is no reason to spend the time making your own when there are others out there that will work if your bullet has an adequate grease groove. Most of the Lee standard moulds, in my opinion, don't have an adequate groove. Even the double groove designs don't have enough lube to aid in keeping lead to a minimum. Again, just my opinion.
I used to use a lube of beeswax and a liquid alox, White Label Lube-Liquid X Lube, because I had 4 quarts left over. It worked but involved too much time to do. Maybe when I am retired, I will take it up again.
If you want the best bullet lube around, at the cheapest prices, go here: White Label Lube
If you have a heater on your luber/sizer get the Carnuba Red, if not, BAC is the way to go for pistol cartridges. I have never used their 50/50 nor their 2500+ but, I have never had a bad product from them either.
p.s. Not affiliated with White Label Lube at all other than a customer!
p.p.s. Hobby Lobby has sheets of Beeswax too if you want to go that route. It is around $10 for a good sized chunk.
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For those of us that do not cast our own bullets, would it help to "dip"our commercial cast bullets in a liquid lube to add additional lubrication?
Or does it only work if in the lube grooves? By dipping or tumbling in a plastic bowl the liquid lube would pretty much just get on the nose of the bullet.
Or does it only work if in the lube grooves? By dipping or tumbling in a plastic bowl the liquid lube would pretty much just get on the nose of the bullet.
The lube you are describing is very close to what I use for my BPCR bullets from my 45-70. It is very simple to do, and if you watch the below listed YouTube video you will see it being made. Obviously, you will not be pan lubing bullets, but the lube is the same.
For color, toss in a couple of Crayola crayons in the color of your choice, no need to buy a specialized dye.
How to Pan Lube Cast Bullets - YouTube
For color, toss in a couple of Crayola crayons in the color of your choice, no need to buy a specialized dye.
How to Pan Lube Cast Bullets - YouTube
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Yes, it will help. There have been reports of folks using just Xlox or Alox up to 1500fps! With no leading.
What I did was used a 1lb coffee can. The new plastic kind. Put the bullets in there, squirt the stuff in, put the lid on and hold it (obviously) and turn it like a rock tumbler for a while, pour out onto wax paper, if I got ambitious I put the bullets on their bases (use plastic gloves) waited a day and loaded them up. Some folks use mica and dust them to keep them from being sticky. Use the Xlox or Alox @ 50/50 mineral spirits and they dry lots faster. Some have even used a spray bottle to applicate.
Hope this helps.
ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YOU COULD START CASTING! Problem solved!
By the way, if you find a good lube recipe, and you are going to lubricate a lot of bullets, you can simply pour the lubricant from the double boiler into your lubrisizer and let it cool. This assumes that the rubber gasket in the sizer is functioning as it should, for if it is not, you will have a mess on your hands.
ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YOU COULD START CASTING! Problem solved!
No free lead!
No free lead!
No free lead!
No free lead!
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Well, you don't get free powder do you? Buy some lead, or take it off of your neighbor's car tires! They will notice the bounce, have the wheels rebalanced and you will be good to go with a constant supply of free lead!
A little imagination goes a long way!
A little imagination goes a long way!
Alk8944
US Veteran
I agree with most of what Alk has posted and it is good information BUT I would add several things to think about.
Hard or soft, a lead bullet must fit. If it fits, hardness makes little to no difference until you are on one end of the spectrum or another.
The right fit and too soft pushed too hard, leading. The right fit and too hard pushed too light, possible leading, powder dependent.
There is no reason to make your own lube, none. I have done it, and been successful with it, but there is no reason to spend the time making your own when there are others out there that will work if your bullet has an adequate grease groove. Most of the Lee standard moulds, in my opinion, don't have an adequate groove. Even the double groove designs don't have enough lube to aid in keeping lead to a minimum. Again, just my opinion.
I used to use a lube of beeswax and a liquid alox, White Label Lube-Liquid X Lube, because I had 4 quarts left over. It worked but involved too much time to do. Maybe when I am retired, I will take it up again.
If you want the best bullet lube around, at the cheapest prices, go here: White Label Lube
If you have a heater on your luber/sizer get the Carnuba Red, if not, BAC is the way to go for pistol cartridges. I have never used their 50/50 nor their 2500+ but, I have never had a bad product from them either.
p.s. Not affiliated with White Label Lube at all other than a customer!
p.p.s. Hobby Lobby has sheets of Beeswax too if you want to go that route. It is around $10 for a good sized chunk.
Smith Crazy,
Just to establish my bonafides. I have been casting for over 50 years, have cast and fired several hundred thousand bullets, and have used nearly every commercial lube on the market that are supposed to be super-duper in preventing leading. This included several hard lubes, LBT Blue and Commercial and your White Label. Moly bearing, with graphite, and just about any type imaginable. Absolutely none of them comes close to preventing leading as well as the Saeco formula.
So far as your comment that there is never any reason to make your own lube, this simply is not true. When I obtained the Saeco formula from an old Saeco factory rep. the company had been out of business for quite a few years. This was before Redding began began selling the Saeco Green several years ago. I had no idea how well it would work, but felt it worth the small investment to try it out. I was past amazed at how well it worked after spending quite a bit of money in the previous several years trying to find a lube that was adequate among the many commercial hard and soft lubes that were available. I'll relate a personal experience later. Even if it worked no better than any of the commercially available lubes the cost saving alone would be worth the effort. The price I related, $7.50 a stick, was right from the Redding web site. If I can make 20 sticks of the same lube, for less than the price of 2 sticks of purchased lube that would be more than sufficient reason to make it. 20 sticks purchased would cost $150, and I can make that much for less than $10! Don't you think that is a good reason? When I get around to casting I will literally, cast several thousand bullets of various types. I will go through several sticks of lube in finishing these bullets. $25-30 for just the lube is not an expense I care to bear.
I will relate one experience which absolutely convinced me of the efficacy of the Saeco formula. A few years ago I had about 1/2 box of Speer 250 .45 LSWC bullets which I loaded just to get rid of them. They were loaded w/9.0 gr Unique in .45 Colt, and fired in my USFA Rodeo. Just for the heck of it, and knowing these would lead the gun terribly, I proceeded to shoot all 50 rounds without brushing the bore every few cylinders full. When done the leading was even worse than expected. the proverbial "sewer pipe" accurately described the condition of the barrel. You, very literally, could not even tell the barrel was rifled for the lead, from one end to the other. I wasn't in a mood to stop shooting it, just a plinking session shooting shotgun shells, cans, dirt clods, etc. I loaded the gun with the same load, with the difference being the bullets were Lyman 454424, wheelweight + a little tin, and the Saeco lube. I fired 6 rounds, removed the cylinder and examined the barrel, not expecting it to be anything but still badly leaded. Nearly all the lead was gone! There was just a little wash close to the muzzle. A second cylinder load through it and the barrel was completely clear of lead!. All it took to clean it was a patch with Break Free. Would you say lube performance like this is a good reason to make your own lube??????? This isn't something I just made uo, it is a proven formula that has been sold for probably over 70 years.
I have the same experience with .44, .41, and .357 Magnums, as well as all "standard" revolver cartridges. I have used it in rifles chambered for .38-55, .45-70, and .458 Winchester Magnum, with the same results, just wipe with a patch wet with Break Free and then a dry one. At most, with few exceptions, will run a dry bronze brush through the bore and charge holes half a dozen strokes, followed by the wet patch. Often no brushing is needed for leading, but to remove the fouling deposits from the pwoder and primer in the front of the charge holes.
So far as bullet fit is concerned, you are right. A poorly fitting bullet will lead regardless of, or even because of being hard. But, a bullet hardness by itself is never the answer. As I said before, a bullet of 12-15 Brinnell, with a good lube, and fit to the cylinder throats, will do everything that can be done to prevent leading with cast bullets in revolvers. Only semi-automatic pistols and rifles have any need for harder alloys. The only time you will have problems with a revolver is if the cylinder throats are smaller than the barrels groove diameter. If this is the case the gun will lead, no matter what is done, until the throats are corrected. A proper fitting cast bullet will be throat diameter to .002 larger. Don't worry about the bore diameter, that will take care of the bullet sizing for you, that is what the forcing cone is for, to guide the bullet into the bore. Any increase in pressure as a result of an "oversized" bullet is insignificant, and it has been shown in pressure testing that often pressure will be lower than with a bullet sized to bore diameter. This is, again, in revolvers, and is a result of the dynamics of a revolver, which are entirely different that those of a fixed-chamber firearm.
Tell me if I have left anything out!
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Well, Alk, your post is certainly long enough not to have left much out!
I think there are things in it that I agree with BUT I get the same performance from the White Label Lube as you get with the Saeco formula.
Now, the BAC seems to be better than the Carnuba Red at times and depending on the firearm but, I simply do not get the leading in the first place so, a test like yours would be almost impossible, and to be honest, I am very thankful for that!
Tell you what though, winter is coming upon us, I will have a bit of free time on my hands and I will give this lube a try. I don't want it to be said that I am close minded when it comes to firearms stuff. When I run it, I will give a report. I am not so old a dog that I cannot learn a new trick or two, especially from someone obviously much, much, older than I (Since I am just a tad over 50, and you have been casting for 50 years, you must be quite a bit older......... )
So, I will copy the post above with the formula and give it a go....... It'll be a while but, I promise, I will try the lube and give a report here on the forum.
I think there are things in it that I agree with BUT I get the same performance from the White Label Lube as you get with the Saeco formula.
Now, the BAC seems to be better than the Carnuba Red at times and depending on the firearm but, I simply do not get the leading in the first place so, a test like yours would be almost impossible, and to be honest, I am very thankful for that!
Tell you what though, winter is coming upon us, I will have a bit of free time on my hands and I will give this lube a try. I don't want it to be said that I am close minded when it comes to firearms stuff. When I run it, I will give a report. I am not so old a dog that I cannot learn a new trick or two, especially from someone obviously much, much, older than I (Since I am just a tad over 50, and you have been casting for 50 years, you must be quite a bit older.........
)So, I will copy the post above with the formula and give it a go....... It'll be a while but, I promise, I will try the lube and give a report here on the forum.
ScottJ
Member
The comments about fit are dead on. Yesterday I and a friend shot 50 of Lee's 358-158-RF out of my old M&P loaded over 3.5gr of Bullseye for an average velocity of 761.
No leading. None. Powder fouling only. I didn't even bother to scub the bore this time. Just wiped down the outside of the gun with an oily rag.
My other successful boolit is Lee's 358-140-SWC. I've used it mostly in .357 over 8.5gr Accurate No. 5 yielding 1010fps average out of my 2.5" 66-3. I shot lots of those since I use it in IDPA. I've gone 200 rounds without leading at all in the 66. This is the same experience I have using this load in my 4" 28-2.
All the above are pan lubed with the old NRA beeswax-parafin-vasaline formula.
My next project is to get a 9MM loading that works as well. I've been using the RCBS 115gr RN over 3.8gr of Bullseye. I size .356 because unsized they won't feed well. 50 rounds of this out of my Sigma left spotty lead streaks all down the barrel.
Fortunately an overnight soak in Kroil and some light brush work will take care of it but my goal is the no lead performance I've seen above.
No leading. None. Powder fouling only. I didn't even bother to scub the bore this time. Just wiped down the outside of the gun with an oily rag.
My other successful boolit is Lee's 358-140-SWC. I've used it mostly in .357 over 8.5gr Accurate No. 5 yielding 1010fps average out of my 2.5" 66-3. I shot lots of those since I use it in IDPA. I've gone 200 rounds without leading at all in the 66. This is the same experience I have using this load in my 4" 28-2.
All the above are pan lubed with the old NRA beeswax-parafin-vasaline formula.
My next project is to get a 9MM loading that works as well. I've been using the RCBS 115gr RN over 3.8gr of Bullseye. I size .356 because unsized they won't feed well. 50 rounds of this out of my Sigma left spotty lead streaks all down the barrel.
Fortunately an overnight soak in Kroil and some light brush work will take care of it but my goal is the no lead performance I've seen above.
