Non-S&W ammo question- 308 vs 7.62 NATO

[scoobysnacker]

I'm asking on this forum because people here seem to be quite knowledgeable and reasonable overall (I tend to look at the Other Brands section as much/more as I do some of the big generic firearms forums).

As stated, .308 Winchester vs 7.62x51 NATO. I don't want a flame war, I want some calm, reasoned guidance, from someone who knows more than I do.

I have an Ishapore 2A1. This is an Indian surplus rifle, designed in the British Enfield model, but factory chambered in 7.62x51. As I understand, the Indians didn't have enough FAL's, so they made/issued these to the reserves. It's a bolt action. And as noted, it's NOT a conversion or rechambering.
I have shot PPU 7.62, and it ran great.

Now, the situation. I was low in ammo, and the world has suddenly gotten weird out there . I wanted to get some stock for everything, so I looked for something for this.

A lot of sellers lump both 7.62 and 308 under the same group. I had an older guy at a LGS tell me for practical purposes they interchange.
Ammoman dot com lists them together; they ran a deal where you could buy "50 loose brass rounds" in a bag for $20. They said it was from busted shipping boxes. I went ahead and ordered several bags.

I seem to have received all Armscor 308, in what I will guess to be 147 gr FMJ (that seems to be their popular listing elsewhere). Here's a photo, if I can get it up:

This should be safe, right?

 

[scoobysnacker]

Here's a photo of the headstamp

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I've been mixing and matching 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester for almost 50 years in military chambers and civilian chambers with no issues. I reload both 7.62 NATO cases and civilian 308 Winchester cases in the same set of RCBS dies and I've never had an issue in that endeavor either.

I've never shot Armscorps ammo, but if it is within specs, you should be good to go.

 

[505Gibbs]

The 308 should function just fine!

 

[LoboGunLeather]

7.62 NATO was a US military development of the 1950's. The goal was a .30 caliber cartridge with a shorter length than .30-06 in order to facilitate use in automatic and semi-automatic weapons. If memory serves the project was called the T-62 cartridge. The effort was successful in providing a cartridge that nearly duplicated the performance of .30-06 with a significantly shorter length.

Winchester announced the .308 Winchester as the civilian version of the same cartridge.

During the same time period there was a strong push toward standardization of small arms ammunition among the several NATO countries. 7.62 NATO was the standard for rifles and light machineguns, and many different nations began production around the world. As might be expected, there are some differences found, such as relatively minor variations in cartridge dimensions, case wall thickness, bullet weights and profiles, etc.

Probably the most significant matter to discuss is the variations in operating pressures. In the US we have the SAAMI (Small Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) with standardizations for these industries, established manufacturing tolerances, and standardized testing procedures. None of those standards apply to US military production, and certainly not to any other nation's production.

In general terms the .308 Winchester and the 7.62 NATO are the same cartridge, however there will be noticeable variations in the practices of different manufacturers and military arsenals around the world.

ARMSCOR is a Philipine company with a generally excellent record for quality. Much of the Philipine firearms and ammunition industries grew out of partnership with the US military after WW2, and a significant portion of the market for ARMSCOR products is in the United States.

I hope this helps.

 

[rockquarry]

I've always wondered about the action strength of these rifles but they're apparently okay for 7.62 NATO / .308. Anyone know if there is a problem with excessive case stretching or primers backing out using full power factory ammo in these rifles?

Actions with rear locking lugs, like the British rifles are believed to be "springy", but I've had a Schultz & Larsen Model 60 in a magnum chambering that showed no indication of excessive case stretching, something that can quickly lead to case head separation.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I've always wondered about the action strength of these rifles but they're apparently okay for 7.62 NATO / .308. Anyone know if there is a problem with excessive case stretching or primers backing out using full power factory ammo in these rifles?

When I still had my Ishpoor Enfield in 7.62 NATO, I checked the case stretch with my gauges and found that on average with US Army M852 Match Ammo, the stretch was on average .010" when measured from the case head to the datum line on the shoulder. This was completely safe when firing factory or military issue ammo, but as a matter of safety, I wouldn't recommend such cases for more than a couple of reloads (if you reload) due to the case web eventually separating.

As a side note, my Ishpoor would hold 10 shots into just over 1 MOA (from a bench rest) with M852 Match ammo.

Some trivia: I did a few assignments in the Philippines in the GWOT and shot quite a bunch of Filipino 7.62 ammo in M14 rifles. It must have been Armscorps ammo as it was the Filipino Army issue round for their designated marksman rifles. Not up to US Army standards, but it did go bang and had a good 500 yard performance.

 

[scoobysnacker]

Lots of good information, thanks everyone

In general terms the .308 Winchester and the 7.62 NATO are the same cartridge, however there will be noticeable variations in the practices of different manufacturers and military arsenals around the world.

ARMSCOR is a Philipine company with a generally excellent record for quality. Much of the Philipine firearms and ammunition industries grew out of partnership with the US military after WW2, and a significant portion of the market for ARMSCOR products is in the United States.

So... here's my followup question;

as I stated, I have already shot new PPU 7.62x51 NATO (the label on the box). I've seen PPU .308 Winchester loads on the shelf.

This Armscor stuff is stamped .308 WIN. On their website, they list only .308 Winchester, several weights. I think this is the 147 gr FMJ.
In searching the internet, I've seen (sold out) Armscor 7.62 NATO ammo.

Should I assume, for companies like Armscor and PPU, that the ammo (I guess the case specifically) is the same?
Note:

• targetsportsusa dot com lists Armscor 7.62x51 NATO, brass case, 147 gr fmj. That's on the box.
• Armscor's website lists Armscor .308 Winchester, brass case, 147 fmj. Apparently their current production.

Considering it's the same manufacturer, these should be identical, correct?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

There are minor differences that every body want to harp on, but the only differance that truly matters is bullet design. 7.62 NATO is either FMJ or a heavy jacket match bullet. 308 Winchester could have those or the soft or polymer tipped hunting bullets. All can kill most anything, some just do it better.

The 147 grain FMJ and the commercial 150 grain are usually close enough to work in the fixed sight rifles set up for Ball Ammo out to the limit of oprn sight hunting distances.

Ivan

 

[Rule3]

I did not write it, nor do I know what to believe.
Read the whole article



Shooting Illustrated | .308 Win. vs. 7.62 NATO: What's the Difference?



The actual pressure differences between aren’t all that large—a 62,000 psi limit for the .308 Win. and 60,200 psi for the 7.62 NATO—but it’s enough to be concerned with; a tight chamber, or an overly dirty chamber could pose a pressure issue. No one wants to damage a firearm, and we certainly don’t ever want to see anyone hurt; so keep the golden rule in mind: a .308 Win. chamber can handle both .308 Win. and 7.62 NATO ammo safely, but if your rifle is marked for 7.62 NATO ammo, it’s best to use only that.

 

[Sirex1975]

The reports I have read, were the original Enfields used a slightly softer steel, and after tons of shooting, headspace could open up a bit. The Ishapore Enfield is supposed to be made with better metallurgy than the British variants, so I have read. I mainly shoot 7.62x51 Nato thru mine, or Russian 308 ammo which is slightly underpowered and I use for range blasting thru my Ishapore. Despite the steel case, I haven't had any extraction issues yet, but I don't shoot it as much as my other guns.

 

[jc2721]

As I recall, the Lee-Enfields all had replaceable bolt heads to adjust for bolt compression/headspace stretching (for lack of the proper terminology). Bolt heads were numbered from 0 to 3, IIRC.

I did have an Ishapore .308, never shot it and don't recall if the bolt head was removable. If it is, look for the next size larger and have a go/no gauge handy or a good gunsmith on call.

 

[deyomatic]

Just watched this the other day. If I recall, he recommends calling the factory and asking them if it's rated for .308 Winchester. Let me know how that goes!


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs9SqfOhvCM[/ame]

 

[DWalt]

Not sure I buy into the story in that video. First, some .308 brass weighs as much, if not more than, 7.62x51 brass indicating similar case/neck wall thickness. Second, while it is true that most 7.62 NATO military rifle chambers are cut a little looser dimensionally than SAAMI spec chambers (because military ammo may be muddy, corroded, dented, etc.), I have never heard of a civilian sporting rifle chambered specifically for 7.62 NATO using the military chamber tolerances. Doesn't mean that they may not exist, but if so, they must be very uncommon.

Be aware that the NATO chamber pressure test method differs from the SAAMI piezo method and results are not comparable. However there is evidence that peak chamber pressures taken using the SAAMI method for both military and civilian .308 rounds are still very close for equivlent loads.

 

[carpriver]

Thing used be only issue I ever had with 308 vs 7.62x51 was getting once fired brass that was Military brass and had to ream the primer pockets. I reload for a M-14 and a Ruger scout rifle I do keep the brass separated.

 

[The_Truth]

I did not write it, nor do I know what to believe.
Read the whole article



Shooting Illustrated | .308 Win. vs. 7.62 NATO: What's the Difference?



The actual pressure differences between aren’t all that large—a 62,000 psi limit for the .308 Win. and 60,200 psi for the 7.62 NATO—but it’s enough to be concerned with; a tight chamber, or an overly dirty chamber could pose a pressure issue. No one wants to damage a firearm, and we certainly don’t ever want to see anyone hurt; so keep the golden rule in mind: a .308 Win. chamber can handle both .308 Win. and 7.62 NATO ammo safely, but if your rifle is marked for 7.62 NATO ammo, it’s best to use only that.

This is what I was taught and what I always thought, but even DPMS told me .308 is good to go in one of their 7.62x51 marked barrels. I've had no issues except it likes 150 grain better than 168 grain, which isn't ideal for my application. I usually like heavier bullets when shooting game animals.

150gr Hornady Superformance SST in .308 is my "EDC" in my rifle with 7.62x51 marked barrel but .308 marked receiver. Shoots awesome.

My stash ammo for the same rifle is some super sweet vintage Malaysian Military surplus 140-something grain FMJ 7.62x51. It shoots that stuff as good or better than the expensive .308.

 

[scoobysnacker]

I think we can put this question into the "Answered" question; I got a reply from Armscor.

Good day!

Hope all is well. As per our gunsmith, .308 and 7.62 are the same ammo.

Feel free to send us back an email if you have any questions.

Thank you,

Carol w/ Armscor
Armscor Support Team
m: (775) 537-1444
w: Armscor International, Inc e: [email protected]

This was in response to my asking if there was any difference in their own manufactured ammunition.

 

[dbell54]

I think we can put this question into the "Answered" question; I got a reply from Armscor.

...As per our gunsmith, .308 and 7.62 are the same ammo.

This was in response to my asking if there was any difference in their own manufactured ammunition.

So are they both .308 brass or both 7.62x51 brass? And are they really marking 7.62 brass with a .308 headstamp (or vice-versa)? LOL, I'm guessing that they aren't ISO9001 certified.

 

[PR24]

They boom just the same from said launchers.