OK, I'm a little clearer about coatings....

[rwsmith]

We just had a long, informative thread about exactly which coatings are what. Now. Effectiveness? It seems that people are saying pistol velocities are no problems but that coatings do start to break up at rifle velocities. Ok, where is that? It looks like the highest velocity I'd be able to push a 140 grain bullet in .357 would be around 1500 fps. My reduced rifle loads with lead bullets start around the same point How fast can coated bullets be pushed? Does the length of barrel make a difference?

 

[venomballistics]

We just had a long, informative thread about exactly which coatings are what. Now. Effectiveness? It seems that people are saying pistol velocities are no problems but that coatings do start to break up at rifle velocities. Ok, where is that? It looks like the highest velocity I'd be able to push a 140 grain bullet in .357 would be around 1500 fps. My reduced rifle loads with lead bullets start around the same point How fast can coated bullets be pushed? Does the length of barrel make a difference?

but wait ... theres more ... as always.
You refer to the hy tek coating which seems to hit its redline a little early. I imaging you could squeeze another 100 or so out of it with a harder alloy.

Powder coating can make 1600 to 1800 with pure lead, depending on the grade of the coat.
WW grade lead can make up to 2400 with quality coat.
getting cute with alloys ... I've been up to 2700 with some room to go.

since we are talking about a few different ball games that look like the same thing, this gets to be clear as mud for those just becoming aware of it and all the surrounding debates.
In fact, even for those of us actively dealing with these things, theres a whole lot of territory to venture into yet.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

With Hi-tech, if the coating is good (ie passes the smash and acetone wipe), you can push it in jacketed territory without leading. Accuracy is another story.

simple Hi-Tek coating - Page 47

 

[Nevada Ed]

Just wondering...........

If someone loaded some dead soft lead .358, 125gr hollow points.........and coated them.
Would the old "Nyclad" 38 special load rise from the dead ?

Todays SD bullets are all copper jackets .........no lead bullets
are listed any more for SD use, or on the shelves, except for
the 158 FBI load.

 

[Forrest r]

Velocity doesn't seem to affect powder coating. I've read where people have ran their powder coated bullets to 3,000fps+ and had no leading/fouling. I did a little of my own testing with a 308, only had the up to 2300fps. Here's recovered bullets from the berm, the only time the pc comes of is when the bullet hits something solid.



I have a ton of testing to still do with pc'd (powder coated) bullets in the 308. With the limited testing I've done so far the accuracy is there & I've been getting 60fps to 75fps more velocity from the pc'd bullets compared to their traditional lubed/gc'd counterparts with the same brass/bullet/primer/powder/load. A 10-shot plinking test load.



In 2009 federal returned the "nyclad" ammo using you guessed it, nylon coated bullets (something new/something blue as in blue bullets).

Federal Premium Ammunition - Handgun

I don't use the paint (hi-tec) coating on bullets, I use the dry powder coating (nylon). Both will work extremely well, I just chose not to mess with chemicals. One of the side affects/bonus of coating bullets is the annealing of the alloys being used.

Why is annealing the alloys important?

It makes cast bullets more consistent. Meaning for casters like me that have used range scrap/hill pickens for decades that used to have batch to batch (100 # @ a time) differences in the alloys hardnesses. The difference was from where the lead came from, pistol range/rifle range and then how much jacketed or 22's were in it along with the bp round balls. WW (wheel weight) alloys also varied from mfg to mfg, that's why most people that test the ingots they get from them with hardness testers get 10bhn to 12bhn readings. The range scrap varies anywhere from 8bhn to 12bhn.

Either coating is heat activated, 400* for 10 to 15 minutes. This heat/time in the oven will anneal the different alloys to an even 8bhn/9bhn. The pc coating itself is 24bhn and is self lubricating. The end result is a soft bullet that easily seals the cylinders/chambers/bores but will not lead any of them.

The soft lead cast hp bullets created by the pc process do extremely well at slow speeds. Planned on doing allot of testing this next shooting season with the pc'd cast hp's. The limited testing I've done so far has been impressive.The different hp bullets/weights/calibers to be tested will be:

9mm ='s 125gr round/penta
38spl/357 ='s 125gr round/penta, 140gr round, 150gr round, 158gr round, 158gr round, 158gr round/penta
44spl/mag ='s 200gr round, 245gr round/penta, 265gr round/penta
45acp ='s 200gr round/penta

I have a casting & swaging background when it comes to bullet making (30+ years now). I used to use thin copper jackets or pure soft lead slugs to swage bullets with huge hp's for slow/low velocity rounds in snub nosed revolvers. Still do, old habits are hard to break, some 150gr hp's designed for 800fps +/- loads in a 38spl snub nosed revolver.



Anyway, the pc'd hp's have taken the place of the soft swaged lead hp's. Decades ago I learned that the most effective hp/bullet/velocity combos in revolvers and pistols were:
800fps to 1000fps ='s soft lead (8bhn to 10bhn) hp's
1000fps to 1200fps ='s alloyed lead (ww's/excellent for this) 10bhn to 12bhn
1200fps+ ='s solid nosed lead bullets
800fps to 1400fps ='s swaged/jacketed hp's (depending on size/shape/depth of hp)
1400fps+ ='s solid nosed jackets bullets

I can't say enough good about pc'd bullets, everything I've used/tested them in so far has outperformed their traditional cast/lubed/gc'd counterparts. Still have allot of testing to do, this year the push was to cast & pc the bullets to use for next year.

Next years test field (44+ different bullets) in 7 different calibers that will be pitting traditional cast/lubed/gc'd bullets against the pc'd/pp (paper patched)/jacketed bullets. Along with comparing the difference in performance of the different hp's/hb's (hollow base/11 different hb bullets) and traditional swc/rn/fn/sp designs.



There's only one way to find out what works & what doesn't. Go out and get the pieces and parts and start pc'ing/testing your own bullets.
goodwill/salvation army 2nd hand oven ='s $5
#5 plastic bowl ='s free
airsoft bb's ='s $5
1# of pc powder ='s hf $5/a good quality pc, $10

 

[venomballistics]

Just wondering...........

If someone loaded some dead soft lead .358, 125gr hollow points.........and coated them.
Would the old "Nyclad" 38 special load rise from the dead ?

Todays SD bullets are all copper jackets .........no lead bullets
are listed any more for SD use, or on the shelves, except for
the 158 FBI load.

no reason it could not be duplicated.
All the coatings do pretty much the same task Federals nyclad did.

 

[David R]

I have tried the Hi tek coating with 30 caliber bullets from Bayou. They shoot at 1825 fps, no gas check and no fouling I get 2 to 3" groups @ 100 yards, 1.25" @ 50 yards.

This is out of a plain Jane Stevens model 200 (savage 110) 308 with a cheap scope. I shot hunter silly wets with it this summer and my girlfriend shot 10 of 10 pigs @ 50 yards with the same gun and ammo.

I am now loading 1,000 BNWC HI TEK coated max load 38s. Groups are GREAT. Almost no smoke. Gun smells funny when I take it out of the safe. I have also shot gator bullets powder coated version. (I don't know if its Hi Tek) in my new bulldog 44 special. Zero problems, I have shot more than half of the 500 already. I have not ever cleaned the gun yet.

I also bought the Hi Tek kit and tried my own 222 bullets. I cast them and shoot them out of a savage 24V. The powder coated ones did not work at all. they went through the target sideways. Gave up on that one and just use 40 grain jacketed with a reduced load of 8 grains Unique.

I am liking this stuff since I have had my share of lead poison.

David

 

[rwsmith]

I have to admit.......

I thought Nyclads were a gimmick when they first came out. I bought a box for novelty. It looks like I'm eating crow. Just as in the other thread where we asked about coating great information comes thick and fast.

 

[venomballistics]

I thought Nyclads were a gimmick when they first came out. I bought a box for novelty. It looks like I'm eating crow. Just as in the other thread where we asked about coating great information comes thick and fast.

well .. the whole idea of coatings DOES invoke the "Aw comeon man, like that's going to work" response.
Even I, a high cleric at the alter of coated lead can see disbelief where all of .002" of plastic stands between the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

really, the only remaining full skeptics that remain have not actually tried it in any form, while the questions of those who have, have shifted to barrel wear and fowling debates, now that they have progressed beyond their baptism and into the search for doctrine within this "new" faith.

and its not really new at all.
been used for all sorts of reasons for far longer than most may think.
Armor piercing bullets often use a coat of teflon to save the gun from the damage brought on by the very materials that make it an AP.
the old Winchester black talon also used a coating, probably more for aesthetics than performance.
Was also used on some of their copper solid rifle ammo, probably to save barrel wear.
Federals Nyclad ammo was probably the closest incarnation there ever was to what we do now.

 

[rwsmith]

Well, I didn't have a reason then....

well .. the whole idea of coatings DOES invoke the "Aw comeon man, like that's going to work" response.
Even I, a high cleric at the alter of coated lead can see disbelief where all of .002" of plastic stands between the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

really, the only remaining full skeptics that remain have not actually tried it in any form, while the questions of those who have, have shifted to barrel wear and fowling debates, now that they have progressed beyond their baptism and into the search for doctrine within this "new" faith.

and its not really new at all.
been used for all sorts of reasons for far longer than most may think.
Armor piercing bullets often use a coat of teflon to save the gun from the damage brought on by the very materials that make it an AP.
the old Winchester black talon also used a coating, probably more for aesthetics than performance.
Was also used on some of their copper solid rifle ammo, probably to save barrel wear.
Federals Nyclad ammo was probably the closest incarnation there ever was to what we do now.

I could afford jacketed bullets, or shot soft lead for targets. It wasn't until the last couple years I got into hard cast due to the shortages and cost. Then I run into the smoky, smelly lubes and I thought, "Surely by now they have some materials that will stand up to firing from a gun." Lo and behold, here come coatings that we have actually had all along. I wonder if everybody didn't see a need like I did that shooting cast bullets was lacking in several areas and the industry responded with some improvements that wouldn't have been widely accepted until now?

 

[Shooter Magaven]

Be advised, keep your enthusiasm for these new fangled bullets in check. Otherwise the nice government men will find a way to outlaw them. Y'all are having way too much fun with these things. Stop it!

that is all.

BTW Forrest, you have way too much time on your hands, but I love your dedication to your work. Very nice stuff indeed!

 

[venomballistics]

I could afford jacketed bullets, or shot soft lead for targets. It wasn't until the last couple years I got into hard cast due to the shortages and cost. Then I run into the smoky, smelly lubes and I thought, "Surely by now they have some materials that will stand up to firing from a gun." Lo and behold, here come coatings that we have actually had all along. I wonder if everybody didn't see a need like I did that shooting cast bullets was lacking in several areas and the industry responded with some improvements that wouldn't have been widely accepted until now?

I saw the same need early on in my transition to cast.
Ive tried a few spray paint attempts, even Imron to get a handle on the smoke and mess.
some things almost worked, but never made the cut.
Powder coating ... at the time, the tools to use this stuff was rather cost prohibitive and quite obscure. The internet really made ESPC possible, and cost effective.
Hy Tek .... that was likely someones experiment in Australia at the time.
Planets had to do some alignment before it could come into its own time.

At times I kinda miss the smoke and greasy film of guntan lotion. I do not miss cleaning lube out of dies, or ammo that got warm enough to melt the lube.
Oh yeah ... forgot to mention I misplaced my copper chore boy pads.

 

[Forrest r]

BTW Forrest, you have way too much time on your hands, but I love your dedication to your work. Very nice stuff indeed!

Thank you for that, the wheels are always turning.

I have a pretty good casting & swaging background, 30+ years now along with the tooling/ability to make or modify the bullets molds, swaging dies, nose forming dies, sizing dies, etc.

It's nothing to hp a mold or make a gas check maker or a custom sizing die. I make my own nose forming dies for swaged bullets all the time.

What does all this have to do with coating bullets? PC'ing bullets opens up a hole new world to bullets in general. But it is also an excellent platform to use the cast/pc'd bullets as cores to swage different styles/types of bullets out of them.

Swaging is superior to casting because there's no voids/air pockets in the swaged bullets that end up in cast bullets. The other advantage swaged bullets have over cast is the precise dimensions that the shooter gets from swaged bullets.

Casters have made special bump dies for years to squeeze every last bit of accuracy out of their cast bullets. The bump dies did as the name implies, they bumped/increased the diameter of the bullet (nose bore riding portion of the bullet most of the time).

Pc'd bullets are excellent for this or simply using them as cores to swage other bullets out of them. The pc'd bullets are soft/annealed from the baking process and the powder coating acts like a lube so they don't have to be lubed to be used in the swaging dies.

Anyway, a couple of 30cal bullets that have been swaged for a custom 308 bbl.
Left ='s 212gr paper patch bullet/core.
Right ='s 230gr lee blackout bullet/core

I did a rough (real rough) drawing of the new shape of the bullets. There's actually 2 different tapers in the swaging die I made. The 1st taper is 5/8" long and starts out @ .3095" over the 5/8" length tapers down to .309". The 2nd taper starts @ .308" (if you look close you can see the line/start of the 2nd taper in the swaged bullet) & goes down to .302". After that it steps down again into a pointed nose.



A closeup of the stepdown from .309" to .308".



Typical case necks for a 308 are around .300" long & the freebore in my custom bbl (cut for 190gr jacketed) is longer than a standard 308's freebore (standard freebore is around .160") and mine is .210" long. .3" + .210" ='s .510". The main body of my swaged 308/30cal bullets is 5/8" or .625". .625" - .510" ='s .115" or 1/2 the gas check will be sitting past the bottom of the case neck. The 2nd taper of the swaged bullet (.308" to .302") matches the leade angle of the bbl that was specifically cut for shooting cast/lead bullets (long leade or 3/4*). Standard 308 leade's are normally very short from the steep 1 1/2* angle they are cut with.

Any 30cal bullet can be pc'd and then can be shot or easily bumped to whatever dimension the user wants or swaged into something entirely different. The powder coating expands with the bullet and doesn't crack or flake off.

Just something to think about.
Next time you see one of those old sets of swaging dies that sell for next to nothing that used the copper 1/2 jackets and a standard reloading press. Grab it and use you pc'd cast bullets as cores to swage your own hp's or hbwc's or anything else you can think of.

 

[rwsmith]

Wow

^^^ Wow. Just Wow.

 

[Maximumbob54]

but that coatings do start to break up at rifle velocities.

It's not that the lead breaks up or anything. I think it has more to do with the fact that the lead can't handle the twist in the bore like the copper jacket can. Combine that with most lead bullets for rifle are heavy for caliber and are made to be loaded lighter for current lead load standards so the twist plus the bullet weight are against you. My current back burnered project involves a lighter weight 130gr bullet to be loaded in a .308 Win case and see where that takes me instead of the 180gr+ bullets I had been trying. Pure conjecture on my point and I could be far and beyond wrong.