Optics: You help me pick please.

Coots

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I've narrowed my choices down to a few scopes and or red dots that I'll list below. If you don't mind, please give me your opinions. Also, do any of you guys have any ideas about cowitnessing? I've never done it before and would like some heads up on it before I attempt it.

If I go with a scope:

Nikon Prostaff: Amazon.com: Nikon ProStaff 3-9x50 Riflescope (Matte, Nikoplex): Sports & Outdoors

Primary Arms: Primary Arms Scope

NC Star Scope + Red Dot: Amazon.com: Mark III Tactical P4 Sniper 3-9X42/Scope Adaptor Mount/Red Dot Combo Package: Sports & Outdoors

If I go with a red dot only.

Primary Arms Multi-Reticle: Primary Arms Multi-Reticle Red Dot Sight

Primary Arms Micro Dot: Primary Arms Micro Dot (Gen 2)

Bushnell Tactical Elite: Amazon.com: Bushnell Tactical Elite 1x32 Red/Green T-Dot Riflescope: Sports & Outdoors

If I do get a red dot, I'll probably end up getting a magnifier. I usually shoot 50-100 yards. My personal issue with wanting a magnifier and or a decent powered scope is I have a retinal eye disease and the extra 'zoom' or 'power' to the scope / red dot will greatly benefit me while shooting.

Any help is greatly appreciated guys/gals.
 
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Zero with your iron sights or MBUS first prone (if possible)

Then Co-witness it with the optic

or

another option is fire with a bi-pod or a bench bag with the optics. if you getting a magnifier put it on.

take one shot, then adjust your red dot/cross hair to that hole on the target. Take another shot to confirm it

depending on how your optics MOA is how far you want to zero in
 
If your shooting is mainly at 50 yards or greater and you're going for paper punching I would get a scope. If you're going to be quickly moving from long range to shorter range targets in a competition the secondary red dots or flip to side magnifier mounts make sense. Otherwise you can rezero the scope and drop down to 3x and shoot 25 yards just fine, or even remove the scope and deploy back up iron sights.

I'm also not sure how using a red dot may be effected by your eye condition.

Whatever you decide on, the Primary Arms optics are pretty stellar offerings for the money. Add to that the awesome customer service they provide, it's tough not to support them.

If I had the money I would get the Primary Arms 3-9x scope. Not to say the Nikon is a bad scope, I'm sure it's great and you'll love it, just that with a larger 30mm tube on the Primary Arms scopes and being only $100 for the 3-9 with mount it's hard to beat the value.

I will admit there are some concessions made. You're buying a Chinese made optic made to the specs from the guys in Texas, and I believe I read that the mil-dots are not correctly spaced for true range estimation.
 
I've narrowed my choices down to a few scopes and or red dots that I'll list below. If you don't mind, please give me your opinions. Also, do any of you guys have any ideas about cowitnessing? I've never done it before and would like some heads up on it before I attempt it.

If I go with a scope:

Nikon Prostaff: Amazon.com: Nikon ProStaff 3-9x50 Riflescope (Matte, Nikoplex): Sports & Outdoors

Primary Arms: Primary Arms Scope

NC Star Scope + Red Dot: Amazon.com: Mark III Tactical P4 Sniper 3-9X42/Scope Adaptor Mount/Red Dot Combo Package: Sports & Outdoors

If I go with a red dot only.

Primary Arms Multi-Reticle: Primary Arms Multi-Reticle Red Dot Sight

Primary Arms Micro Dot: Primary Arms Micro Dot (Gen 2)

Bushnell Tactical Elite: Amazon.com: Bushnell Tactical Elite 1x32 Red/Green T-Dot Riflescope: Sports & Outdoors

If I do get a red dot, I'll probably end up getting a magnifier. I usually shoot 50-100 yards. My personal issue with wanting a magnifier and or a decent powered scope is I have a retinal eye disease and the extra 'zoom' or 'power' to the scope / red dot will greatly benefit me while shooting.

Any help is greatly appreciated guys/gals.

The Primary Arms Multi-Reticle has three different reticles; the dot/circle - the dot/crosshair - and the crosshair. Of the three reticles the dot/crosshair pretty much has no real use on a red dot. The crosshair, well, its useful somewhat for those use to a more traditional corsshair image but you probably would not use it that much once you get used to the dot/circle and as far as centering your sights on a target the dot is the same thing just without the lines because your going to put your point of impact at the center of the crosshairs anyway which is where the dot is. Overall though, for target range use and general use like hunting, for the price its a good sight.

The Primary Arms micro dot is smaller and lighter then the Multi-Reticle and the dot is more crisp for viewing then that of the Multi-Reticle which may suit your vision just a little better. Its a good sight too for the price for over all general target range and hunting use. It takes up less space on your rail also.

For the dot size, depends on your use requirement (below rounded up):

1 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 2.094 inches
2 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 4.189 inches
3 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 6.283 inches

1 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 1.047 inches
2 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 2.094 inches
3 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 3.142 inches

1 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 0.524 inches
2 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 1.047 inches
3 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 1.571 inches

1 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.262 inches
2 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.524 inches
3 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.785 inches

For red dots, anything within the dot MOA cover size at the range used is considered as within MOA for the group, so if you end up with a group of, for example, 1 inch at 100 yards with a 2 MOA dot then your still at 2 MOA group for the sight even though the group its self may be 1 MOA. Likewise, a group that is 6.283 inches at 200 yards with a 3 MOA sight is considered in a 3 MOA group even though the group its self may be 6 MOA just about. Its different with a scope and crosshair where you shoot for Point of Impact (POI) at the crosshair center and your group is what the impact point is. With a red dot sight you shoot for POI in the dot MOA and your impact group is considered as what the dot MOA is.

The dot cripsness also figures into it. A 3 MOA dot that is crisper and a more defined dot then a 2 MOA dot with a dull edge and somewhat difused at the edges, even though the group would be smaller mathmatically with the 2 MOA dot, is actually more accurate because its eaisier to center on the target visually because you can more cleary see the target area not covered by the dot at the edges allowing more accurate and quicker placement of the dot for the desired point of impact.

By the way, this is where a holographic sight like the EOTech out does the non-holographic red dot projected in the sight. This is because of the nature of projecting the dot. The holographic appears to be projected onto the target and not right in front of your eye, where the non-holographic red dot is projected in the sight right in front of your eye. The human eye tries to constantly resolve the dot in the non-holographic red dot first. On the other hand, the projected holographic dot for the EoTech is simply "on the target" at any angle of view and the eye does not try to resolve the dot first but rather the target of which the dot appears to be part of, and thats what you want to do, especially for quick target acquistion or with both eyes open shooting with these types of sights, resolve the target first and not the dot. For quick target acquistion resolution it should be target first and not dot first while firing. The non-holographic red dot projected into the sight forces dot resolution first then target resolution even if you don't realize it, its natural and part of how the human eye system works, and automatic because the eye tends to see the closest object first which in this case is the dot projected into the sight, you could not stop doing it even if you tried or think your not doing it. The non-holographic dot resolution first arangement tires the eyes more quickly than the holographic that provides the target resolution first with the red dot "part of the target", which means your eyes are working harder with the non-holographic red dot by trying to resolve two different things instead of one thing (target with the dot part of it) in the holographic EoTech. Its also quicker to resolve one thing at a range (the Eotech dot as part of the target) then two different things at different ranges (the non-holographic dot in front of your eye then the target at what ever range its at) .

I have a friend that has retinal eye disease (which is what caught my attention for your post), and he loves to shoot. We had a heck of a time picking out scopes and sights for him. I have a little bit of an idea of what your going thru, so scope and sight selection is a little more critical for you then might be for someone else and budget might not be your only consideration.

If your budget is in the Primary Arms ranges for the sights you noted, The Primary Arms Micro Dot with a magnifier might be more suitable for you because the 3 MOA dot is a little more crisper then the 2 MOA dot of the Primary Arms Multi-Reticle. The Primary Arms Deluxe 3X magnifier might suit you as well, its the same as the regular primary arms 3X but the deluxe has adjustments for centering the red dot in the magnifier to offset any paralax errors, normally the adjustments aren't really needed by most but in your case they may be needed.

The Bushnell sight, 3 MOA dot also and is pretty clear, but its larger and heavier by its self then the microdot, but comparable in space occupied and weight to the primary arms micro dot with magnifier. It has the same quality glass as the primary arms micro dot. However, the cost is better then the primary arms microdot and magnifier combo.

I'd stay away from the NCStar.

The Nikon is decent for a budget scope.

Even though it costs a lot more, you may want to consider a sight like the EoTech holographic sights also as it will be a lot less strain on the eyes in your case.

Hope this helps, good luck :)
 
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Thank You

The Primary Arms Multi-Reticle has three different reticles; the dot/circle - the dot/crosshair - and the crosshair. Of the three reticles the dot/crosshair pretty much has no real use on a red dot. The crosshair, well, its useful somewhat for those use to a more traditional corsshair image but you probably would not use it that much once you get used to the dot/circle and as far as centering your sights on a target the dot is the same thing just without the lines because your going to put your point of impact at the center of the crosshairs anyway which is where the dot is. Overall though, for target range use and general use like hunting, for the price its a good sight.

The Primary Arms micro dot is smaller and lighter then the Multi-Reticle and the dot is more crisp for viewing then that of the Multi-Reticle which may suit your vision just a little better. Its a good sight too for the price for over all general target range and hunting use. It takes up less space on your rail also.

For the dot size, depends on your use requirement (below rounded up):

1 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 2.094 inches
2 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 4.189 inches
3 MOA @ 200 yards = covers 6.283 inches

1 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 1.047 inches
2 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 2.094 inches
3 MOA @ 100 yards = covers 3.142 inches

1 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 0.524 inches
2 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 1.047 inches
3 MOA @ 50 yards = covers 1.571 inches

1 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.262 inches
2 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.524 inches
3 MOA @ 25 yards = covers 0.785 inches

For red dots, anything within the dot MOA cover size at the range used is considered as within MOA for the group, so if you end up with a group of, for example, 1 inch at 100 yards with a 2 MOA dot then your still at 2 MOA group for the sight even though the group its self may be 1 MOA. Likewise, a group that is 6.283 inches at 200 yards with a 3 MOA sight is considered in a 3 MOA group even though the group its self may be 6 MOA just about. Its different with a scope and crosshair where you shoot for Point of Impact (POI) at the crosshair center and your group is what the impact point is. With a red dot sight you shoot for POI in the dot MOA and your impact group is considered as what the dot MOA is.

The dot cripsness also figures into it. A 3 MOA dot that is crisper and a more defined dot then a 2 MOA dot with a dull edge and somewhat difused at the edges, even though the group would be smaller mathmatically with the 2 MOA dot, is actually more accurate because its eaisier to center on the target visually because you can more cleary see the target area not covered by the dot at the edges allowing more accurate and quicker placement of the dot for the desired point of impact.

By the way, this is where a holographic sight like the EOTech out does the red dot projected in the sight. This is because of the nature of projecting the dot. The holographic appears to be projected onto the target, where the LED red dot is projected in the sight. The human eye tries to constantly resolve the dot in the red dot LED first. On the other hand, the projected holographic dot for a sight like the EoTech is simply "on the target" at any angle of view and the eye does not try to resolve the dot first but rather the target of which the dot appears to be part of, and thats what you want to do, especially for quick target acquistion or with both eyes open shooting with these types of sights, resolve the target and not the dot. For quick target acquistion resolution it should be target/dot and not dot/target while firing. The red dot projected into the sight forces the dot/target resolution even if you don't realize it, its natural and part of how the human eye system works, and automatic because the eye tends to see the closest object first which in this case is the dot projected into the sight, you could not stop doing it even if you tried or think your not doing it. The dot/target arangement tires the eyes more quickly then the holographic that provides the target/dot type of resolution.

I have a friend that has retinal eye disease (which is what caught my attention for your post), and he loves to shoot. We had a heck of a time picking out scopes and sights for him. I have a little bit of an idea of what your going thru, so scope and sight selection is a little more critical for you then might be for someone else and budget might not be your only consideration.

If your budget is in the Primary Arms ranges for the sights you noted, The Primary Arms Micro Dot with a magnifier might be more suitable for you because the 3 MOA dot is a little more crisper then the 2 MOA dot of the Primary Arms Multi-Reticle. The Primary Arms Deluxe 3X magnifier might suit you as well, its the same as the regular primary arms 3X but the deluxe has adjustments for centering the red dot in the magnifier to offset any paralax errors, normally the adjustments aren't really needed by most but in your case they may be needed.

The Bushnell sight, 3 MOA dot also and is pretty clear, but its larger and heavier by its self then the microdot, but comparable in space occupied and weight to the primary arms micro dot with magnifier. It has the same quality glass as the primary arms micro dot. However, the cost is better then the primary arms microdot and magnifier combo.

I'd stay away from the NCStar.

The Nikon is decent for a budget scope.

Even though it costs a lot more, you may want to consider a sight like the EoTech holographic sights also as it will be a lot less strain on the eyes in your case.

Hope this helps, good luck :)

Thank you very much for your response. Some great information in the post. Do you happen to remember the disease your friend has? I have Retinitis Pigmentosa.

Anyway, it looks like either way I choose, scope or red dot, I'll be going with Primary Arms. To many people talk so good about these guys.
 
Thank you very much for your response. Some great information in the post. Do you happen to remember the disease your friend has? I have Retinitis Pigmentosa.

Anyway, it looks like either way I choose, scope or red dot, I'll be going with Primary Arms. To many people talk so good about these guys.

Can't remember exact medical name right now but it starts with an 'E', something to do with scar tissue that forms on the membrane in the eye, and associated with his diabetic retinopathy.
 
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Spend the little bit extra money and buy the 2x7 or 3x9 Redfield and have not made in china special that comes from a company that is known for quality optics and gives you a warrantee. Redfield has become Leupold’s entry level scope and I bought the 2x7 model. It is out of stock a lot for two good reasons. High quality and low cost.
 
If your eye condition dictates a magnified optic then I would stick with a conventional scope. The red dot + magnifier setups are big, bulky, heavy, with horribly short eye relief. I have seen several of the dime store variety red dot/magnifier combos and IMO even the cheapest conventional scope outperforms. If I wanted a red dot with magnification I would go with a Burris AR332.

Of the three magnified scopes you have linked I would chose the Nikon, not because I think the Nikon is a good scope... but just process of elimination. The Primary Arms 16x you linked is fine if you want to anchor your rifle to a bench. The thing weighs a whopping 26oz and with their mount you'll be strapping on more than 2 pounds to your 15-22:eek::eek:. Keep in mind that without sights your rifle weighs about 4.5 pounds (much less than other black rifle .22s) which is real nice if you are planning on doing much other than supported shooting. The NcStar MrkIII has an inherent problem--it sits a bit too low for an AR platform. Some folks aren't bothered by it, others are. There have been reports from MarkIII owners that the micro dot position on the scope eyepiece doesn't have enough adjustment to properly zero.

If I were you I would go to a local retailer with scopes on display and find one that looks good to your eyes.

ps. If you do decide to go with a red dot don't get hung up on dot size. They are not for precision shooting anyway. If you want to have a more precise aim with a large 5MOA dot then you can use the top edge of the dot. I have a Primary Arms Micro Dot Gen2 and Gen8. Gen2 is rated 4MOA. Gen8 is rated 3MOA. The dot on the Gen 8 seems significantly smaller than what the dot size rating would suggest.
 
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I have read from several people here that the dot on this sits too high to obtain proper adjustment. (I see Phil just wrote that as well).

I can't speak for scopes and eye disease, but I'll throw in my personal approval of Primary Arms products.

Co-witnessing just means that you are ABLE to see your irons through the scope, not that you should use both simultaneously. It gives you the option, should optics fail.
 
I"ve used a prostaff 3-9x42 on a .270 for 2 years now and it's a great optic imo. Since I put it on it's been through half a dozen back country hunts which isn't easy on equipment and held zero indefinitly. I even took it out last weekend to re-zero it after it took a hard tumble and it was still dead on at 600 yds. Not sure what the eye relief is but it's very comfortable for me and the glass is extreamly clear.
 
I think I have a solution for you:
Now if your shooting within 50yards, then go with a Red Dot with iron sights backup, co-witness 100% or 1/3 co-witness. Reason, first you shooting a 22LR really not designed for long distances. Under 50y you don't really need magnification. Also both eyes will stay open for fast target identification and quick and rapid followup shots. Now what Red Dot fills that bill, middle of the range on price, built solid, has a 2X magnification, works great.... Yes, the Vortex Strike Fire price $149 with low or high mount for co-witnessing. (you also get a 2x magnification that you can pocket or screw in if you just have to make that long distance shot.. but again 22LR, really now are you going to be shooting 100yards?? for fun maybe..
Note: Co-witnessing is important if your Optic's stops working i.e. Red Dot breaks, you flip up the rear and front, and you get back in the action. Combat proven and works for our military and police like a champ. Good luck.
 
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