Original .38 Special velocities

[Texas Star]

Some have said that original .38 Special ammo was loaded as hot as some of today's Plus P stuff, but was considered normal pressure then.

Does anyone know what velocity was achieved with the 158 grain bullet? Was there any velocity difference between black and smokeless powders? When were BP loads discontinued? I think smokeless ones were on the market by about 1900?

Might ammo loaded in the 1920's or '30's give the full 870 or so feet per second, from a six-inch revolver barrel?

Thanks,

T-Star

 

[Texas Star]

Some have said that original .38 Special ammo was loaded as hot as some of today's Plus P stuff, but was considered normal pressure then.

Does anyone know what velocity was achieved with the 158 grain bullet? Was there any velocity difference between black and smokeless powders? When were BP loads discontinued? I think smokeless ones were on the market by about 1900?

Might ammo loaded in the 1920's or '30's give the full 870 or so feet per second, from a six-inch revolver barrel?

Thanks,

T-Star

 

[Pisgah]

Might ammo loaded in the 1920's or '30's give the full 870 or so feet per second, from a six-inch revolver barrel?

I don't know about the '20's and '30s, but Ive chronoed early-'50s vintage ammo and gotten nearly that from a 3" barrel. It was Remington Kleenbore 158 gr. RN ammo. This was ten or so years back, and a total of 18 rounds was all I fired, but the average velocity as I recall was around 850-860 fps.

 

[CMcDermott]

Original 38 Special ammo would have been loaded around the turn of the century, not in the 30"s. And there have been both smokeless and black powder loaded ammo found from this time period. As far as how hot it was loaded, the Bullseye loadings haven't changed since then.

 

[1Aspenhill]

Texas Star,
The 38/44 S&W Spl ammo was loaded very warm for it's day-1150fps which is comparable to today's 357 Mag. Not hard to figure out where the 357 Mag came from!
Bill

 

[Texas Star]

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
Original 38 Special ammo would have been loaded around the turn of the century, not in the 30"s. And there have been both smokeless and black powder loaded ammo found from this time period. As far as how hot it was loaded, the Bullseye loadings haven't changed since then.

Thank you. I knew that. (My original post mentions smokeless loads being available by 1900....)I was just interested in how warm it was for the first 30 years or more. The fellow who chronographed the 1950's batch pretty much told me what I needed to know. It was probably not too different from earlier batches. But the more data, the better, if anyone finds any older tests. I want to know how close it came to published specs.

Someone who used to post here a lot claims that today's Plus P is no hotter than what was once standard load pressures. Wanted other info before believing him.

I had read that the black powder loads were hotter, by a little. But what a mess to clean up after shooting...

 

[danski]

The standard black powder load for the .38 Special was around 19 grains FFFg, and according to Mike Venturino his tests showed
velocities around 860 fps, using a 158 grain hardcast bullet and a 7.5-inch barrel.

Standard smokeless loads also come in round 800 feet a second and the so-called plus-Ps
maybe a hundred feet faster.

In the 1920s, the hotter .38s, today's plus-Ps or low-end .357 velocities, were created and marketed only for the N-Frame .38/44 guns.

I suspect from 1900 to now, the .38 is all over the place in velocities but seldom more than 1,000 feet a second and that's using 125 grain bullets.

Treasury used to have a plus-P for its snubby Model 19s marked +-P .38 Special +-P, using a 110 grain bullet and supposedly above 1,000 feet a second. In effect, a "9 mm" round was created in a .38 cartridge. A friend of mine found some at a show a year ago and the stuff really zinged with a loud crack from his snubby Model 19.

Of course, I could be wrong and often am.

 

[smith17]

TS:
Regarding your question about how long Black Powder loadings were on the market, I just obtained a Winchester Ammo Guide, dated 1938, which was a year before they were obtained by Western Cartridge Co. There is a BP loading listed with a 158 gr. lead bullet, traveling at 870 fps. The K code is K3883T.
The next guide I have, 1941, is after the merger and that one doesn't have a BP loading.
Ed

 

[donaldw870]

I've always been under the impression (I'm sure I got it on this forum) that the original "standard" 158gr LRN velocity was 870 fps. I don't have a clue as to the difference between BP and smokeless, but I could believe that the BP loads could be a little faster.

Donald

 

[Bruce51]

Some .38 history from Ken Waters Pet Loads. The .38 Special originated from the .38 long colt. The .38 Long Colt was loaded with a 150 grain bullet and 18 grains of blackpowder. The velocity was 810fps from a six inch barrel at 12,000 psi. The .38 special was supposed to be an improvement. The load was increased to 21 grains of blackpowder and a 158 grain bullet. These were introduced in 1902 for the Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 Military & police revolver. The next improvement was smokeless powder. The standard loading was 3.6 grains of Bullseye with the 158 grain bullet. These gave velocities of 860 fps at 15,000 psi. The higher velocity loads followed in the late 20's to early thirties. These were loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,100 fps from a six inch barrel. No pressure data is listed for that load. Just a brief revisit of where it all started. Bruce

 

[jimgoldth]

In the 1904 American Sportsman's Library Guns, Ammunition & Tackle. A. L. A. Himmelwright
in the section on the Pistol and Revolver wrote. 38 Long Powder, 18 gr: bullet 150 gr. .38 S&W Special powder, 21 1/2 gr.; bullet, 158 gr.;exact cal.,0.358.
These two cartridges are adapted to the Colt and S & W Military revolvers. The first is the regulation service charge, and the second a special target cartridge. Both are exceedingly accurate. From a 6-in. barrel six shots may be placed within a 6-in. circle at 100 yd. Smokeless ammunitionin this caliber gives equally good and uniform results; fifty to one hundred shots may be fired without cleaning and without sensibly affecting the accuracy. Later in a chart he gives the following information. .38 long colt 6" bbl Black powder M.V. 794 Smokeless powder M.V. 789 penatration in pine 5 3/4"
.38 S&W Special 6 1/2" bbl. Black Powder M.V. 763 Smokeless Powder M.V. 784 penatration in pine 7 1/2"

I am surprised with the M.V. shown as there is more than 10% increase of black powder in the .38 Spec and the penetration in pine would say to me that the special is moving faster than shown. I like the fact that he thought of the .38 spec as a special target round rather than a more powerful round than the .38 LC service round.

 

[HKSmith]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee M:
Some .38 history from Ken Waters Pet Loads. The .38 Special originated from the .38 long colt. The .38 Long Colt was loaded with a 150 grain bullet and 18 grains of blackpowder. The velocity was 810fps from a six inch barrel at 12,000 psi. The .38 special was supposed to be an improvement. The load was increased to 21 grains of blackpowder and a 158 grain bullet. These were introduced in 1902 for the Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 Military & police revolver. The next improvement was smokeless powder. The standard loading was 3.6 grains of Bullseye with the 158 grain bullet. These gave velocities of 860 fps at 15,000 psi. The higher velocity loads followed in the late 20's to early thirties. These were loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,100 fps from a six inch barrel. No pressure data is listed for that load. Just a brief revisit of where it all started. Bruce

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced in 1899, not 1902. The Model of 1899 was the original revolver chambered for the new cartridge - it was originally a black powder round, but smokeless loads became available within a year or so. References for this include Roy Jinks "History of Smith & Wesson" and the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" by Supica and Nahas. And if you insist on first-hand evidence, I own and shoot a Model of 1899 that was shipped in December, 1899.

 

[smith17]

HK:
Just out of curiosity, what is the chambering stamped on the side of your gun's barrel?
Ed

 

[Bruce51]

Originally posted by HKSmith:

Originally posted by Bruce Lee M:
Some .38 history from Ken Waters Pet Loads. The .38 Special originated from the .38 long colt. The .38 Long Colt was loaded with a 150 grain bullet and 18 grains of blackpowder. The velocity was 810fps from a six inch barrel at 12,000 psi. The .38 special was supposed to be an improvement. The load was increased to 21 grains of blackpowder and a 158 grain bullet. These were introduced in 1902 for the Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 Military & police revolver. The next improvement was smokeless powder. The standard loading was 3.6 grains of Bullseye with the 158 grain bullet. These gave velocities of 860 fps at 15,000 psi. The higher velocity loads followed in the late 20's to early thirties. These were loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,100 fps from a six inch barrel. No pressure data is listed for that load. Just a brief revisit of where it all started. Bruce

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced in 1899, not 1902. The Model of 1899 was the original revolver chambered for the new cartridge - it was originally a black powder round, but smokeless loads became available within a year or so. References for this include Roy Jinks "History of Smith & Wesson" and the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" by Supica and Nahas. And if you insist on first-hand evidence, I own and shoot a Model of 1899 that was shipped in December, 1899.

There is no doubt that the 1899 was the first .38 special gun. Hats off to you for posting that info. The question was about the .38 special original velocities. I believe that the information I provided was an answer to that particular question only. It may be that the powder charge was increased prior to the introduction of the Model of 1902. I can only reference what I have as to powder charge and bullet weights. It seems even Speer lists introduction at the 1902 date. There is no doubt it has been around for a long time and we can never learn too much about it. Bruce

For an even more complete history visit wikipedia. It has a very good write up on the .38 special.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

 

[HKSmith]

This has turned into an interesting thread. I know my reply was a bit off-topic, but I've seen the 1902 date quoted in many different places (some of which should know better, like the Speer Manual) that I couldn't resist setting the record straight.

My revolver, which is serial number 225, has no caliber marking on the barrel, which is not uncommon in the first few hundred revolvers produced.

Interestingly, the original smokeless load cited above as being 3.6 grains of Bullseye is still listed in the Alliant Powder Reloaders Guide (2000 edition) as being maximum for a 158 grain LSWC bullet. It yields 910 fps at 15,500 psi. As the French say "plus ca change, plus la meme chose".

 

[Jack Flash]

I like to read posts where someone chronographs period ammo and reports the results. Claimed velocities were difficult to verify back in the day and the marketing types were prone to exaggerate.

It has often been noted that once chronographs became widely available and affordable, claimed velocities dropped a good 10% or so.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Well eventually I might shed some light on this.

I blew a big chunk of cash today on a full box of 38/44 158 ammo from the pre-war period, a box of 200 grn 38 special ammo, a box of 38/44 110 grn high speed ammo and a box of pre-war 38 special ammo.

My plan is to chrono them all out of a variety of 38/44 and see what they "really" do.

 

[Texas Star]

Originally posted by Peter M. Eick:
Well eventually I might shed some light on this.

I blew a big chunk of cash today on a full box of 38/44 158 ammo from the pre-war period, a box of 200 grn 38 special ammo, a box of 38/44 110 grn high speed ammo and a box of pre-war 38 special ammo.

My plan is to chrono them all out of a variety of 38/44 and see what they "really" do.

Please do let us know the results. Even with the age of the cartridges, it should make for interesting reading.

T-Star

 

[Jack Flash]

Originally posted by Peter M. Eick:
Well eventually I might shed some light on this.

I blew a big chunk of cash today on a full box of 38/44 158 ammo from the pre-war period, a box of 200 grn 38 special ammo, a box of 38/44 110 grn high speed ammo and a box of pre-war 38 special ammo.

My plan is to chrono them all out of a variety of 38/44 and see what they "really" do.

That's what I'm talkin' about!

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Well sometimes you get good and bad.

The good news is the boxes are ok to reasonable, but the bad news is they are not all original.

Then the really interesting news. I now have a smattering of large primer 38's, 38/44's and everything from 110 metal piercing down to 200 grn super police loads.

I am going to have to pull each one of the more then 400 rnds I bought yesterday out and try and figure out how to sort them into some sort of reasonable way of chrono-ing them.

As a collector, now that I realize the boxes are not all original, they have lessor value to me and the idea of just shooting them all for the sake of science makes more sense.

I will have to ponder this problem for some time.