Title says it all, just wondering.
PGU-12/B .38spl anyone got pictures?
- Thread starter ddixie884
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Alk8944
US Veteran
Title doesn't say anything! What are you looking for? Did you mean PPU maybe? A few extra words aren't that hard to type to clarify a question!
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Google Images is where I found all of my photos for this loading.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Actually it does. I know exactly what the OP is asking about.
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Nice! PGU and what it replaced. But can we see a PGU round out of the box, showing the deep-seated bullet?
I think that's what the OP wants.
THE PILGRIM
Member
Does anybody have any of this ammo - brass?
What's the head stamp?
I have several thou rounds of GI 38 brass.
I might take a look and see if I have any of this,
if I knew how it's stamped.
What's the head stamp?
I have several thou rounds of GI 38 brass.
I might take a look and see if I have any of this,
if I knew how it's stamped.
OP
Yes TS, That's what I was looking for. The deep seated bullet. When I was a teen, it was featured in a gun mag. I vaguely remember it but I wasn't too interested in it, at the time. After all it wasn't a magnum, and I was a teenager.
I guess my google is not working properly, or I am not smart enough to work it. I spent a coupla hours trying to find it last night, but no joy.
Pilgrim, It was loaded by Lake City, so I would think it would be LC 79 or whatever year it was made. JMHO........
THANX for the shared info.....
Well, even a blind hog finds an acorn, once in a while.
Here's a pic I found on Gun Broker.....
Head stamp says WCC 88. I'm surprised that it was made that late and by WCC...........
I guess my google is not working properly, or I am not smart enough to work it. I spent a coupla hours trying to find it last night, but no joy.
Pilgrim, It was loaded by Lake City, so I would think it would be LC 79 or whatever year it was made. JMHO........
THANX for the shared info.....
Well, even a blind hog finds an acorn, once in a while.
Here's a pic I found on Gun Broker.....
Head stamp says WCC 88. I'm surprised that it was made that late and by WCC...........
Attachments
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Saw this attached photo in an old thread. Looks like PGU-12/B:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7633&d=1257862022
Post #49
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-s-w-vietnam.html?highlight=38+Special+Looked
http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7633&d=1257862022
Post #49
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-s-w-vietnam.html?highlight=38+Special+Looked
Frank46
US Veteran
This begs the question,why are the bullets seated so deeply and what is the ballistics of the load?. Frank
I can't speak to the loading, as I don't reload.
The listed ballistics were 130gr at 1200fps IIRC, much hotter than the M41. I believe these to be test barrel velocities.
. Actual velocities out of a 4" were around 900-950fps right? That's still better than the M41 @~730fps.
OP
A rough idea
This is a loose approximation of .38spl ball issued by US. I got this off the net.
1943; Remington Kleanbore .38spl 158gr steel fmj .0008" copper plating 850fps
1956; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M-41 13,000psi approx 725fps 4" revolver "Aircrewman load"
1961; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Special, Ball M-41 16,000psi approx 950fps 6" test bbl, 750fps 4" revolver
1969; Caliber .38 Special, Ball PGU12/B High Velocity Cartridge 20,000psi approx 1125fps 6" test bbl, 950 to 980fps 4" revolver
Legend has it that M-41 had weak bullet pull. Some service members were said to pull the bullets and double the powder charges. This may have caused damage to the guns and shooters. It is said that this led to PGU-12/B having the extreme bullet tension caused by crimping hard over the ogive and rolling a cannelure into the case at the base of the bullet. This, supposedly, made it very hard to pull the bullets.
This is a loose approximation of .38spl ball issued by US. I got this off the net.
1943; Remington Kleanbore .38spl 158gr steel fmj .0008" copper plating 850fps
1956; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M-41 13,000psi approx 725fps 4" revolver "Aircrewman load"
1961; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Special, Ball M-41 16,000psi approx 950fps 6" test bbl, 750fps 4" revolver
1969; Caliber .38 Special, Ball PGU12/B High Velocity Cartridge 20,000psi approx 1125fps 6" test bbl, 950 to 980fps 4" revolver
Legend has it that M-41 had weak bullet pull. Some service members were said to pull the bullets and double the powder charges. This may have caused damage to the guns and shooters. It is said that this led to PGU-12/B having the extreme bullet tension caused by crimping hard over the ogive and rolling a cannelure into the case at the base of the bullet. This, supposedly, made it very hard to pull the bullets.
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Frank46
US Veteran
So would this be classed as duty ammo or for want of a better term 38 special plus P. Frank
Texas Star
US Veteran
Yes, but heavy use loosened guns much sooner than non Plus P and many needed rebuilding, another argument for adopting 9mm autos. The Beretta M-9 was the result of that quest.
Civilians don't need to practice with Plus P all the time. The guns last longer if fired mainly with std. pressure ammo.
Alk8944
US Veteran
No, for most members it doesn't say anything at all! Not everyone, no matter how long they have been in the shooting sports is a "Cartridge Collector" that studies such obscurities!
Do I have to point out the obvious, that it shouldn't be necessary for anyone reading the OPs initial post to have to resort to "Google" to find out what he is asking about??? Or maybe he just read about this and doesn't really know what he is asking about? Maybe the OP should be the one "Googling" for an answer to his question instead of expecting others to do it for him!
And, FWIW, I knew exactly what he was asking about!
DWalt
Member
"Legend has it that M-41 had weak bullet pull. Some service members were said to pull the bullets and double the powder charges. This may have caused damage to the guns and shooters. It is said that this led to PGU-12/B having the extreme bullet tension caused by crimping hard over the ogive and rolling a cannelure into the middle of the bullet. This, supposedly, made it very hard to pull the bullets. "
It's not a legend. It didn't happen a lot, but blowups occurred from overloaded M41 rounds enough so that the USAF thought it necessary to require a very high bullet pull (130 pounds minimum) to prevent its occurrence. All PGU 12/B manufacture was done at Lake City and Western, and about 72 Million rounds were loaded at Lake City there during 1979 and 1980. It was used only by the USAF and was also the only handgun ammunition ever made at Lake City.
It used a 130 grain FMJ lead core bullet. Specs were an average peak chamber pressure of 20KPSI, with an individual round maximum chamber pressure of 24KPSI. MV spec was 1125+50-25 ft/sec (1100-1175 ft/sec), barrel length unstated. Ballistically, very similar to the 9mm M882 round for the M9. I have the actual Lake City PGU 12/B specs and drawings, and didn't Google anything.
It's not a legend. It didn't happen a lot, but blowups occurred from overloaded M41 rounds enough so that the USAF thought it necessary to require a very high bullet pull (130 pounds minimum) to prevent its occurrence. All PGU 12/B manufacture was done at Lake City and Western, and about 72 Million rounds were loaded at Lake City there during 1979 and 1980. It was used only by the USAF and was also the only handgun ammunition ever made at Lake City.
It used a 130 grain FMJ lead core bullet. Specs were an average peak chamber pressure of 20KPSI, with an individual round maximum chamber pressure of 24KPSI. MV spec was 1125+50-25 ft/sec (1100-1175 ft/sec), barrel length unstated. Ballistically, very similar to the 9mm M882 round for the M9. I have the actual Lake City PGU 12/B specs and drawings, and didn't Google anything.
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OP
Thanks DWalt for the clarification. I have personally never seen one. That's why I was looking for a picture. I was reading about it on the net and became very curious about it.
DWalt
Member
If it helps, the COAL is 1.342". The bullet itself has a spherical nose with a 0.137" radius, having a nominal length of 0.593". The crimping cannelure is 0.060" wide and the top of the cannelure is located 0.360" (nominal) from the bullet nose. Maximum bullet diameter is 0.3559". The bullet is also secured in the case by a waterproofing composition. The Lake City bullet drawing is # 17735597
If anyone wishes to make up a duplicate load, the propellant used is 6.0 grains of HPC (Hercules Powder Company) 23. I do not know what canister powder that corresponds to, but very likely is similar to Unique or Green Dot.
If anyone wishes to make up a duplicate load, the propellant used is 6.0 grains of HPC (Hercules Powder Company) 23. I do not know what canister powder that corresponds to, but very likely is similar to Unique or Green Dot.
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