Playing to rather then by the rules.

[Kiwi cop]

When I first started pistol shooting I carried a Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver on duty. I was based in a small rural town of about 7,000 with another 3-4000 in the surrounding area, and we were authorised to carry in the vehicle at all times. This was unlike metropolitan areas where supervisors cars carried and the average cop needed authorisation to draw a firearm.

I decided that as I had basically free access to my duty firearms I had better get some extra practice and joined the local pistol club. When I qualified to purchase my own pistol it was a 6" Taurus Model 66, a version of the S&W M19. I decided that I would only use .38 special ammunition that approached my full power duty loads. By the time I upgraded to a 6" 686 AFS my range load was 10.5 gn H4227 (later Mulwex AR2205) under a 150 gn LSW. From memory velocity was around 840 fps.

By the time we transitioned to Glock 17's in '97 I had a 9mm, a pre Witness Tanfoglio P19. For several reasons I could not reliably shoot standard 124 or even 115 gn reloads through this gun. I ended up shooting a 103 gn LRN propelled by WST powder at 1250-1300 fps. I shot this pistol in a few competitions but ended up just shooting club events for many years from about 2000 on.

Three years ago I decided to get back into completion shooing, IPSC and CAS. After using my old 9mm for the first two IPSC comps I graduated to a 1911 A 1 . .45 ACP. At my first comp with the pistol, our 2015 Nationals, my load chrono'd out at a Power Factor of 192!

Clearly, although I won a medal in my Division/Grade and finally moved up to the next grade, this was too much oomph so I began to work seriously on reloading for competitions. I bought my own chrono and began to load down to be above, but not too much over, the required PF for the events I shoot.

Now I have to admit I feel a little conflicted in loading to the rules rather than playing by them. I have always believed that I should shoot ammunition that compares to regular duty/carry ammo. But I now find myself scrutinising the rules for each event I shoot and tailoring my ammo accordingly.

After somehow coming up with a load that made PF in my pistol one day butI ended up chono'ing below PF at one comp, and ended up shooting .45 Minor as a result (168 PF), I tend to be pretty fanatical about checking my loads over my chrony every time I buy new lots of powder and primers, and running up a test bunch of ammo before I load for a comp (my next IPSC event is any the end of January and as I will be shooting 9mm this time I worked up a load with a 134 PF before loading up the 500 rounds last week that I will take with me).

It has also lead to my having different loads in the same calibre for the different matches I shoot.

I know that everyone does this, but I can't help feeling at times that I am entering the realm of "gamesmanship" and not shooting sports.

 

[nachogrande]

AT THIS AGE?

In the words of the immortal Lou Reed, "HEY BABE, TAKE A WALK ON THE WILD SIDE". You mean I aint gonna win first place?

 

[Protocall_Design]

As long as you stay within the rules, and don't try to cheat, you are playing fair. In the final analysis, a shooting match is a game, or sport, the same as golf, tennis, football (either kind), bowling, etc.

I like to win as much as the next guy, and give it everything when on the line, but if someone shoots a better score fair and square, I'm fine with that. Then I just need to work to advance my skill level.

 

[Kiwi cop]

In the words of the immortal Lou Reed, "HEY BABE, TAKE A WALK ON THE WILD SIDE". You mean I aint gonna win first place?

It’s not so much about trying to win as it is simply to stay competitive. I am one of the very few (less than 10%) who shot .45 in IPSC Classic Division in our Nationals in 2017. I believe in shot plancement rather than simply “shoot and scoot” so my times are never super fast.

The only score I need to beat in any comp is my own last score.

I shoot the big (Island Champs/Nationals) where I compete against the country’s best shooters and therefore score lower overall as well as the smaller more regional grading competitions where the shooters are not as good and I end up scoring much higher.

Interestingly, our National Champion for the last few years has gone back to shooting .45 over 9mm to get the higher points for the shots out of the A zone recently.

 

[old&slow]

Over the years I have seen a few 'gamers'. Folks that would sit their ammo on the car dash ,in the sun, to keep it warm for the chrono. Or have two different loads,, one if the match had a chrono ,,the other if they didn't.
Sometimes it worked and they got away with it ,, sometimes it didn't

Back when the USPSA power factor was 175 ,, I loaded a 200gr SWC H&G 68, like about everyone else, at about 180 PF. A friend let me try his 230gr load @ about the same PF. Which had what seemed to be less felt recoil for USPSA. Plus seemed to take Bowling pins off the table better than the 200 gr bullet.

So I switched to the 230 load .. Was I gaming or playing by the rules ??
I don't shoot much USPSA any more.. But, I'm still using a 230 gr in my 45's and 147 gr in my 9mm.

Sounds like you are playing by the rules,, and doing pretty good in competition to me.. Good Luck and have fun ..

 

[M29since14]

You’ll have to decide how much difference your scores and times really matter to you and how much impact your ammunition has in them. I’m not a competition shooter but my inclination would be to just shoot your .45 at PF 175 and be happy. When you get much below that you’re not using the gun like it was meant to be used (roughly PF 200). Try to keep the shooting fun, not stressful.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Sorry USPSA and IDPA have both become games.... of run and gun....IMHO

Shot both from the early 90s to ........... last match was fall of 2015.

Two IDPA examples of stages from 2015(?) ..........

At a stoplight engage (I think it was) 9 hostiles from inside a car.... front rear and side. Draw and engage a half dozen, or more, hostiles???? It's Peddle to the metal .....................

engage 4 hostiles in the open while backing up...... 3-10yds...... retreat behind a 'wall" and engage 2 more at 15yds (?).....I got behind the wall shot one..... moved to other end of wall and engaged the final hostile.

I was criticized for taking "time" to move 12 ft to engage the last target..... I stated; I wasn't sticking my head out from the same spot twice if I didn't have to!! Jaw drop/head slap ...... oh ya!

They are games!!!!! That said; they do help with shooting skills.........shoot them with your carry/duty guns and holsters..... concealed if that's the way you carry.... with full power ammo. You may be in a class of your own....... but it's better skills training IMHO....oh ya....if you get enough/all A hits ..... no one is laughing at you!!!

 

[Kiwi cop]

Sorry USPSA and IDPA have both become games.... of run and gun....IMHO

Shot both from the early 90s to ........... last match was fall of 2015.

Two IDPA examples of stages from 2015(?) ..........

At a stoplight engage (I think it was) 9 hostiles from inside a car.... front rear and side. Draw and engage a half dozen, or more, hostiles???? It's Peddle to the metal .....................

engage 4 hostiles in the open while backing up...... 3-10yds...... retreat behind a 'wall" and engage 2 more at 15yds (?).....I got behind the wall shot one..... moved to other end of wall and engaged the final hostile.

I was criticized for taking "time" to move 12 ft to engage the last target..... I stated; I wasn't sticking my head out from the same spot twice if I didn't have to!! Jaw drop/head slap ...... oh ya!

They are games!!!!! That said; they do help with shooting skills.........shoot them with your carry/duty guns and holsters..... concealed if that's the way you carry.... with full power ammo. You may be in a class of your own....... but it's better skills training IMHO....oh ya....if you get enough/all A hits ..... no one is laughing at you!!!

I know what you mean .

At our 2015 Nationals we started one stage in front of hard cover open beneath the knees, behind which were two targets ‘bad guys’. There were two more targets to each side that you had to shoot around the sides of the barricade.

I was first shooter up. I dropped down, shot the targets, got up and moved to each side to engage around the barricade.

Everyone else moves to the side and shot behind the barricade f on the low position last. When I asked why I was told it cost time to drop and get up again and the clock stopped at the last shot, so go low last.

My reply was that as a cop I would never leave two bad guys I know were there and allow them to go who knows where until I got back. I was told it was not about real life but a game, to win.

Mind you, the next time I get to do a walk through of an incident scene before attending the job would be an historic first too.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I know what you mean .



Mind you, the next time I get to do a walk through of an incident scene before attending the job would be an historic first too.

LOL.. was that IDPA?? .... that ^^^^^^^^^ too........ & getting time to map out your response....love the guys who go through with their finger guns.

 

[WR Moore]

Kiwi, your first paragraph had my jaw hanging.....until I read who was posting and recalled where you are.

The struggle between gamesperson and martial artist will probably never end. BTW, there is a difference between martial artist and martial artiste.

Yes, many match stages will be real world non-survivable, regardless of how "practical/tactical" the organization.

OK, you seem to have the correct perspective. You're not trying to win trophies, but build skills and improve. One thing I might point out: you should focus on a competition firearm as close as possible to your service weapon (OK, since this is some species of Glock, you can be forgiven for straying.) If this is possible in your legal climate.

I transitioned to 9 mm back in the mid-1980s since that had pretty much become my work caliber. I noticed I shot that much better than the .45 and needed way less practice. Now about those lost points-unless the adversary is nearly on top of you, I devoutly hope you'll never shoot as fast on the street as many competitors do. I found over the years, that the difference between a good solid hit and a not so good hit was about 0.1 second. While that can be an eternity in the top levels of IPSC, it's insignificant on the street.

 

[rwsmith]

Don't cheat and don't overthink.....

Not a thing wrong with tailoring your loads for the competition. As long as you don't cheat, no big deal.

 

[Kiwi cop]

Kiwi, your first paragraph had my jaw hanging.....until I read who was posting and recalled where you are.

The struggle between gamesperson and martial artist will probably never end. BTW, there is a difference between martial artist and martial artiste.

Yes, many match stages will be real world non-survivable, regardless of how "practical/tactical" the organization.

OK, you seem to have the correct perspective. You're not trying to win trophies, but build skills and improve. One thing I might point out: you should focus on a competition firearm as close as possible to your service weapon (OK, since this is some species of Glock, you can be forgiven for straying.) If this is possible in your legal climate.

I transitioned to 9 mm back in the mid-1980s since that had pretty much become my work caliber. I noticed I shot that much better than the .45 and needed way less practice. Now about those lost points-unless the adversary is nearly on top of you, I devoutly hope you'll never shoot as fast on the street as many competitors do. I found over the years, that the difference between a good solid hit and a not so good hit was about 0.1 second. While that can be an eternity in the top levels of IPSC, it's insignificant on the street.

Amen brother.

I would rather slow down a fraction and make better hits than go flat out, but that ain’t the name of the game.

Our issue Pistol is a first gen Glock. In my hands it naturally points low left. When in a sole charge station I had one of the first “Glock socks” and it did wonders for me, till the boss found it one day on an audit and destroyed it.

The last Glock I handled was a Gen 4 with replaceable back straps. Both the #3 and #4 backstraps felt good in my hand but I dislike the way the Glock twists under recoil.

My current play gun, which I will be using in my next few comps, is a Kimber Stainless II 1911 9mm. In my practice sessions my hit factor is almost double what I was getting with the .45. I may go back to the 9mm for major competitions, depending on how I go between now and March, but I really do like the .45. For me the answer m is to outshoot the 9 shooters with the “handicap” that f shooting major. And the Wild Bunch Nationals are being held an hour away from me in early May.

 

[H Richard]

Over many years I have seen various different "factory" 45 acp's 230 gr fail to make Major power factor. I always loaded a little over 180 PF to offset the variable air temperature, which does have an effect of the velocity that day.

 

[Zero Down]

Make no mistake about it, IDPA and the like are games and if you want to be competitive you have to play that game.
If that means loading to the razor thin edge of power factor then go for it, if it means a spring kit and trigger job then do that, I have done that and more all in the effort to "get better".
IMHO the one thing that helps someone get better is practice with a purpose, keeping proficient on off hand shooting, shooting while moving etc.
As long as you don't get caught with illegal modifications, equipment or ammo you are just playing the game so play it and have fun.

You can't be competitive in the game if you apply real life to it and you can't apply game tactics in real life or it will get you killed.
You can play the game and enjoy it for what it is, just put it into proper perspective and don't try to mix the two.

Larry

 

[Fishinfool]

When I first started shooting Duty Gun PPC back in the early 80's, most everyone used the .38 spl, as did I. Then I got a little crazy and started shooting some matches with a 6 inch model 29. At first, guys though I was nuts, and laughed at me. But.... My powder puff cast SWC loads were easy to control, and that bigger bullet diameter did make a difference in scoring sometimes. Then they didn't laugh. Some got mad...

Larry

 

[Gryff]

I know that everyone does this, but I can't help feeling at times that I am entering the realm of "gamesmanship" and not shooting sports.

You are electing to play a game because it is more entertaining than just practicing by yourself. If you care about winning/placing, then play the game. You'll find that as you advance in skill, your real-world skills will also advance even though you are using game-centered gear.

But if you carry a firearm for the job or personal defense, then remember to occasionally practice with your real-world gear. You may shoot the game gun/ammo faster, but that doesn't reduce competency with your more-potent gear, especially if you practice with it once in a while.

 

[rct269]

I whiled away a goodly portion of my misspent youth racing sports cars. If/when asked about the preparation of my cars, the answer was they were "well prepared within the given parameters of the rules". That translates to "We have taken full advantage of each and every possible loophole/fudge factor/interpretive distinction we could find to create an advantage---no matter how tiny."

The only question one needs to answer when it comes to a competition of ANY sort is are you doing this simply for the satisfaction of competing, or for the satisfaction of winning? In the racing world, there are racers---and people who race. I imagine in the shooting world there are shooters---and people who shoot. Pick one, and proceed accordingly.

Ralph Tremaine