POA vs POI

[sonofthebeach]

I wasn't sure where to post this question, but here goes.

I was standing in my living room this morning, considering the dimensions of the room (roughly 18ftx15ft), and thinking about the possibility of needing to defend myself against a BG using any of my revolvers. I have a factory-sighted 642 loaded with Gold Dot 135 +P, and an SP101 3" , (also factory-sighted), loaded with .357 Remington Golden Saber 125gr JHP.

At the range, before my shoulder surgery last month, I fired my fixed-sighted 642 with some reloaded 148 gr WC's over 3 grains of Bullseye, and also with some Federal 129gr +P. At 7 yards, the factory loaded cartridges shot 5" lower and to the left, unlike my mild handloads. The same general thing with the SP101 3"...mild handloads closer to POA, than with the Golden Sabers hitting low.

I don't understand bullet trajectory from the time the bullet leaves the barrel, and I don't know how to deal with the difference between POA and POI, especially as it applies to a defensive scenario, where my natural tendency will be to aim (if adrenaline permits) exactly at that point of the target where I want the bullet to go.

I read on forums like this that people with fixed sighted .38/.357 revolvers claim that heavier 158gr bullets seem to shoot to POA, without any compensation by the shooter. Is this generally true, and if so, should I be loading my short barreled revolvers with heavier, slower bullets?

How do you all get your different cartridge/bullet combinations to hit where you want them to? Sorry for the long-winded post, but I really could use your input with this.
Thanks.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, my Model 49 does the same thing--hot 125s go low and left, while 158s go to point of aim. FWIW, I prefer to stick with 158s.

Light bullets will print lower than heavy ones in nearly all handguns. Not all will shift laterally--some do, some don't, and I'm not sure why.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Some folks deal with it by buying guns with adjustable sights. Other folks (this usually includes me) buy used fixed-sight guns from dealers who let them try the guns out (with factory ammo) before buying. I own a lot of guns, and I generally concentrate very hard on remembering where the gun shoots while I'm carrying it. That does NOT include a deviation to left or right. I have sold fixed-sight guns that (for me and my loads) had that issue.

A small left-right deviation can sometimes be altered by noticing whether the gun recoils into or out of the hand (determined primarily by direction of rifling and which hand you shoot with), and changing the grip or the recoil (usually changed with bullet weight) to make the desired corrrection.

 

[Pisgah]

Fixed-sight guns, if they are sighted in at all, are generally sighted in at a given range for what is considered the "normal", or nominal, bullet weight of the cartridge for which they are chambered. For a .38 or .357, that is 158 grs. Lighter bullets, which will recoil less and leave the barrel sooner than heavier bullets, will exit the barrel sooner; heavier bullets will exit later when recoil has raised the muzzle higher. If you loaded up some 180 gr. bullets, you'd find they hit higher.

 

[flop-shank]

I remember where my guns shoot. They don't all shoot to POA. My thinking is that your POI is far enough off that Ron H.'s advice would probably suit you best.

 

[RedBerens]

I will usually try 4-5 different loads before finding the right one for my particular gun. I have a model 37 that shoots the 135gr +P Speer Gold Dot high and left, Federal 158gr +P LSWCHP really high, and the Federal & Winchester +P 125gr JHP's right on. It's a pain, and a little expensive, but I always find a bullet that is just right and then stick with it. Accuracy has always been number one for me, with advertised bullet performance number two.

 

[OKFC05]

I don't understand bullet trajectory from the time the bullet leaves the barrel, and I don't know how to deal with the difference between POA and POI, especially as it applies to a defensive scenario, where my natural tendency will be to aim (if adrenaline permits) exactly at that point of the target where I want the bullet to go.

You and virtualy everybody else is going to shoot at the middle under stress, if remembering to use the sights at all.
The external trajectory is irrelevant at 7 yards. The difference in impact is probably due to 2 factors: bullet weight and tending to flinch with hot ammo. Light bullets shoot low.
So with fixed sights, it is important to pick bullet weight to match the sights and learn to shoot consistently without flinching.
Learning to align the sights takes little time; learning to control the trigger takes careful concentrated learning, and lots of proper practice. You can't learn trigger control by practicing flinching.

 

[xcop]

poi

5 inches low at 7 yards would translate to roughly 18 inches low at 25 yards and I have never seen any fixed sighted revolver shoot anywhere that low and as you say with a mid weight round. As far as the SP101 my sp's and others I know who shoot them find they shoot almost exactly to the point of aim out to 15 yards with the Golden Saber magnum and other rounds at approximately that velocity. You need to let someone else shoot those revolvers as a double check. I agree with the above post that you are most likely flinching. Shooting a +p load in an airweight revolver is not the way to learn.......stay with light loads and then when you develop accuracy try non +P loads like the Nyclad. I feel you are anticipating the shot and flinching

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Why not use factory standard velocity ammo in your revolvers for POA.
P.S. Best home defense weapon is a shotgun.
Jimmy

 

[sonofthebeach]

Thanks to all for your helping me understand what might be going on with my shooting/ammo combinations. Pisgah, your explanation of why slower-moving bullets will tend to shoot higher than the faster ones in response to recoil-induced barrel rise makes sense. And Ron H., thanks for letting me know that my "problem" is not unique to me. I'll try a 158gr load as soon as the shoulder's healed a little more. Surgeon says two rotator cuff repairs on same shoulder is all I get...if this surgery doesn't take, I guess my right-handed shooting is done for.

Since my lateral (to the left) POI seems to be pretty consistent, I'm not sure that I'm flinching in response to anticipated recoil...As I get older, I seem to be getting less recoil-sensitive, but I won't rule out the possibility. Also, the grips on these guns are a lot smaller than the L and N frames that I'm used to. If I could put on a CT laser grip, and try loading a few dummy rounds in between live ones, I'd be able to "watch the dancing dot" to see if this was one of my problems.

OKFC05, I'm used to shooting heavier, revolvers like 686's and my 625, all with adjustable sights, and I agree that I do need to practice a lot to get used to the lighter guns. The SP101 has a longer trigger pull than the 642, and so switching from one to the other revolver in one range session probably isn't helping me either.

xcop, I agree with your advice to practice with lower pressure rounds and graduate to hotter ones gradually. I'm going to do more of that to get used to shooting these smaller, lighter revolvers. The reason for my post here was to try to understand why my shot placement changed with changes in ammo used. When I carry a gun, I won't just throw the hottest loads available into the cylinder, and figure that I'll be ready for any potential BG encounter. I really want to become physically and mentally proficient with the gun/ammo combination, and then pray that if I ever have to use it defensively, that I have the wisdom and courage to use it well. I think that your idea of having another experienced shooter at the range try out my gun/ammo combinations will help me to know how much of the problem is due to my shooting ability, or lack thereof.

Jimmyj, I agree that for home defense a shotgun will probably beat any handgun for effectiveness. My only experience with shotguns was with my brother's Mossberg 500 12guage loaded with rifled slugs...I think the model was called the "persuader" or something like that. The thing came with a removable shoulder stock which of course my brother insisted on removing. My brother never shot any firearm before, and so on our first range trip, he insists that I take the first shot. So, I figure, how bad can this black baby kick anyway? Surely it can't be any worse than a Marlin 1894 in .44mag., right? Wrong! I reel out the paper target about 15 yards, operate the pump to chamber the first round, hold the gun at waist height figuring that it'd be impossible to miss the paper, squeeze the trigger...instant pain in shoulder, elbow, wrist (remember, I just had shoulder surgery last month)...gun range owner unhappy that I destroyed yet another target holder/cable assembly...and so ended my shotgunning career. Off topic, but how in the H..L can one of these be used defensively if a second round needs to be fired? Does 00 shot kick less than the slug that I fired that fateful day, or is a 20 guage a better choice?

Well thanks again all for your comments and suggestions.

Happy New Year to all of you.

--Andy

 

[Steve C]

Since you are a handloader you sould just buy some inexpensive Remington 125gr JHP's or JSP's, sit them on top of 5.7 to 6.0 grs of Unique and you'll have a +P equivalent to practice with. Hit the range and get used to the ammo. Low and left is usually increasing your grip pressure or a little flinch.

At close range 7 to 10 yds I find my revolvers shoot point of aim with light 125gr and heavy 158gr bullets at least with in 1 or 2" though I've never had them on a Ransom rest. At 25yds they shoot heavy 158's to point of aim at a NRA 25 yd 5-1/2" bull target and 125gr bullets to point of impact.

 

[flop-shank]

SOTB, you've recieved some excellent council. I have a few random thoughts to add.

Learn to shoot handguns and long guns ambidextrously. Do most of your practice with the hand you would use a particular gun to fight with, but do not ignore the other hand. For example, I do most of my practice with my P3AT weak handed because I almost always carry it on the weak side. People in gunfights often suffer hits to the hands and arms, so you need to be able to use the weak hand. The 1986 Miami shootout is a prime example. IIRC, five of the ten participants were hit in the arm or a hand. I even practice one handed weak side shooting with my 5" .44 magnum. If I couldn't shoot somewhat reasonably like that, I would switch guns and or ammo.

As far as shooting the SP-101 and 642 together goes, my feeling is that the more you shoot any and all guns the better off you will be. I don't care if it's a squirt gun. You will learn to differentiate between them quickly. Just keep practicing. Dryfire will help.

You don't need to do the bulk of your shooting with full power ammo. Light loads, followed by a cylinder, or two, of the wildest stuff you shoot well, will keep you in practice.

Also, do your range work firing double action, even when taking your time trying to shoot tight groups. Actually, especially then. You will get more of a surprise sear break and will likely shoot more accurately. I never fire SA anymore. If you aren't jerking the trigger and you see the muzzle flash before you blink, then you're doing it right.

As far as shotguns go, very few people are good with a pistol grip. I wish they'd stop making those silly things. The dentists must be paying the gunmakers under the table. I'm currently running two HD shotguns. One is a law enforcement trade-in Remington 870 Wingmaster, the other is an Ithaca 37. Both are five shot 12 ga. guns with a full stock and 18" barrels. Such guns can be found for between two and three hundred bucks. Sometimes less and if you're handy, an old hunting gun can be cut down to just over 18". Low recoil 00 buckshot from basic shotguns such as mine, as well as offerings by Mossberg or Winchester will serve you well.

There is no need for blacktical-tactical crap. Just keep the shotgun simple, and yes, a 20 ga. pump loaded with #3 buck will work well. A 12 ga. with a real stock loaded with low recoil buckshot is not bad to shoot. Small statured female officers have to be able to employ the things, so an average guy is not bothered. For practice, light cheapo birdshot loads will work fine. For defense ignore the mis informed people who tell you to run birdshot. Birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is for deer sized critters.

If your shoulder precludes firing strongside, once again, learn to shoot using the other hand. A Daisy Red Ryder and hours of practice will solidify your weak hand skills. That's what I did. If your shoulder makes a pump gun unusable from either shoulder, then a gas operated auto, such as a Remington 11-87 might be your best bet. The 11-87 will offer lower recoil even with the full power 00 buckshot I'd recommend that you run it on.

Happy new year and good luck!

 

[Pisgah]

Shooting to the right or left can be caused by any of several factors. First, for some reason, some loads will shoot consistently right or left in some guns. Then, there are situations where the barrel is slightly over-or-under-tightened, resulting in a slightly canted front sight; and I've seen guns with fairly tall front sights that were slightly bent one way or the other.

But most common for me is the grip. A factory-gripped fixed-sight S&W, for instance, in my hands will always shoot slightly to the left. Stick a Tyler T-grip on it, and it will shoot to center in my hands. It has something to do with the mechanical relationship between my hand and the grip, as best as I can figure.

And, yes, anticipation of recoil (flinch) can cause it, too.

 

[jimmyj]

Happy New Year, Andy:
A few of my Agency's younger Officers had those pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauges. Never had one that could qualifly with one.
I like standard 2 3/4" #4 Buckshot loads (low brass) for home defense which is the same load of my Agency. Inside a room even hunting loads is good.
Have shoulder surgeries with metal replacement joints myself I sympathize
with you on shoulder pain.
Jimmy

 

[sonofthebeach]

Thanks again for your help flop-shank. Since my shoulder surgery last month, I've been dry-firing both revolvers left (weak-side) handed, and I think that the muscles in that hand are getting stronger. Maybe 5-8 years ago, I kind of stopped single-action firing...it seems that the increased hand/trigger pressure needed to hold and cycle my revolvers double-action actually improved my shooting. I'm not sure why that is, but anyway that's how I now shoot.

I continually switch from one gun to another while handling and dry-firing my guns. My wife says I need to sell one of them (something about $ getting tight), and if I do get to that point, I'll probably part with the 625 with both barrels...I like the caliber and the gun, but the weight and size of the gun are becoming a little too much for my physical abilities to handle it well, both at the range and for any possibility of cc in the future.

When things settle down a little financially (medical bills), I might look around for an 18" barreled pump or auto feed shotgun in either 12 or 20 gauge. I'll need to shoot one in both gauges before I make that decision.

And Pisgah, thanks again for your help.

 

[sonofthebeach]

jimmyj,

I can't say just how many guys in my neighborhood down here in Alabama have had shoulder surgeries...I used to think that shoulder problems requiring surgery were pretty uncommon, but it now seems that every other guy I meet has problems. My brother-in-law down here had his right shoulder fixed last week, but since that was his first surgery, he seems to be healing much better than me. I think it's because during this (2nd) surgery on my right shoulder, the surgeon needed to sew in some kind of patch or something.

I hope that your shoulders have healed well since your surgeries, and that your pain is now gone.

---Andy

 

[hoser]

Are bullets out of wheelguns affected more so than with pistols? I'm thinking about swapping the factory adjustable to fixed sight out of my short barreled L- or N-frame guns. But one of them I'd like to shoot a heavy load for woods carry and then a lighter load for personal defense in city. If poi is dramatically changed out of revolvers, I may keen an adjustable.