Polymer 3rd Gen possible?

[Jim PHL]

Forgive me, members and moderators, if I maybe should have posted this as a single comment in the "demise" thread instead of starting a new one, but I think it does bring a new question into the mix.

Most of the conversation about ceasing production of the third gen series revolves around the expense in materials and machining of the steel +/or aluminum frames. I guess my question is whether there are engineering considerations around the traditional hammer/trigger system that preclude S+W from making polymer-framed versions of their rightfully popular designs? In other words, they can obviously mass-produce polymer frames at a much lower cost than metal, but would the top-end still push the production costs too high?

I, like many here, personally prefer aluminum or steel framed pistols and a TDA or DAO trigger system (with a hammer), but I'm not dead-set against plastic. (Just haven't found the right one yet!) I'm sure I'd be near the front of the line when a polymer-framed 3953 or CS9D hit the streets. Just as many fans of the 6906 in 9mm would do the same, I'm sure. The 457 has a ton of fans as a .45 carry gun. How about one just a tad lighter with the lower NIB price tag the polymer frame would bring?

Perhaps this has been asked before, or perhaps there is something obvious I am missing regarding the costs of the rest of the gun? The uppers on most modern designs are still steel slides and barrels plus a trigger system and a striker or hammer system. What I don't know is, generally speaking, is a modern striker system more cost effective to produce than a traditional hammer system? Maybe it would be as simple as putting a 3913 slide assembly on a new polymer frame. It is likely much more involved than that, but given S+W's built-in fan base, do you think they would ever look into it (or may have already)?

 

[44Frank]

A frank response......

I guess anything could be possible, but, I don't see S&W re-tooling
to produce and re-introduce the 3rd Gen reincarnate, for possibly, a
niche market.
I love my 1911s, they are awesome tools.....
But, I think I just heard my M&Ps snickering in the next room.......

 

[ednred]

It is possible to have a traditional DA action with a hammer in a polymer frame. The FNP series guns already have it. I own a FNP-40 and it is a great gun. It can even be carried cocked-n-locked.

Whether or not S&W would make the kind of investment needed to build something similar is the question.

 

[ericlw]

polymer 3rd gen?you have to be kidding.

 

[Dragon88]

Polymer 3rd Gen possible?

No.

S&W already has a polymer pistol, it's called the M&P.

 

[ericlw]

yea and those arent even close to a METAL 3rd gen gun.

 

[mlk18]

If Smith & Wesson made a poly framed 3rd Gen along the lines of the H&K 45 or FNP 45 I would buy one. Then again I buy a lot of Smith & Wesson's when the come out so that's not saying much. But I don't see it in the cards; the M&P is doing too well.

 

[quneur]

The reason people buy S&W 3rd gens is because of the metal frame. It is an nice alternative to polymer.

 

[Miami_JBT]

It is possible to have a traditional DA action with a hammer in a polymer frame. The FNP series guns already have it. I own a FNP-40 and it is a great gun. It can even be carried cocked-n-locked.

Whether or not S&W would make the kind of investment needed to build something similar is the question.

I own a FNP-45 USG. I bought it because at the time that was all FNH made. But with the release of the FNS series the .45 ACP version will be coming. FNH didn't jump into the striker fired market for giggles. They jumped into the market because that is what sells. Not civilian sales.... no; but government contract sales.

The striker fired pistol is what the majority of shooters want. That's also why the 1911 sales well because it's one single trigger pull. No difference in pull with each shot.

The majority of the double/single action guns out there are used or older designs. The only major hold out to the double/single action is the US Armed Forces (except for the USCG due to being under DHS and carrying the DHS issued Sig Sauer P229 DAK, which is a single DAO trigger pull of 6.5lbs). The DA/SA pistols can sell in artificial markets like California and their anti-gun allies with crazy rules like magazine disconnects, loaded chamber indicators, and manual safeties.

I think S&W is doing the right think with their products. While I am a great fan of them I do remember the days of their darker sides. Horrid quality control, bad customer service, no innovation with their products, and making the deal with the devil (Clinton Administration).

Right now the M&P series of pistol is taking some ground in the LEO market (which is reality is the bread and butter of S&W and many gun companies.... government sales make or break you unless you are a small niche company) but their are some issues with the M&P series.... especially the 9mm full size guns due to the lock up issue. This is happening because the chamber hood was redesigned for the compact series and S&W deciding to use the compact chamber hood in the full size guns thus affecting accuracy and safety.

 

[Jim PHL]

I'm trying to look at it in terms of plastic vs. plastic, not plastic vs. metal. (Plastic vs. metal is discussed pretty regularly!) As I said, I am one of those who prefer a steel or aluminum frame, but for me, the third gens are more than that. I like the trigger and hammer set up, I like the size and shape, I like the grip angle.

For those that prefer the factory hard-plastic grips on their 3rd-Gens, that's mostly what you see when you look at one. (Now approaching blasphemy I know, but...)..if they molded the grip portion of the new polymer 3rd-gen frame to look and feel the same as that grip, then a "new" 3914 or 6904 would look the same from across-the-room distance as a real one looks now.

Don't burn me at the stake! I am a S+W fan and a true 3rd-Gen fan. I have "more than one" 3rd gen and am likely not done acquiring them. All I'm saying is I think I'd rather see a polymer version than have them disappear completely. Instead of thinking about it in terms of a polymer 3rd-Gen vs. a metal 3rd-Gen, think about a polymer 6906 vs a Glock 19 or M&P9c; a polymer 4513 or 457 vs a Glock 36; a polymer 3953 vs. a Kahr P9. Use the comparison of your choice but I'd choose the "Polymer 3rd-Gen" in any of these three examples.

 

[sop]

Sig tried this with the (now discontinued?) Sig Pro series some years back. Not to immediately replace their traditional alloy and steel pistols, but to add a much cheaper DA/SA with hammer and decocker, polymer-framed version of their P226/229 to their line.

They're great guns. Just as reliable and well-made as their P series. For the money, the SP2022 is the best new 9mm you can buy these days. You can find new close-outs for $399. and they're still not popular.

I suspect Sig developed the Sig Pro with the goal of eventually replacing their much more expensive P series with a similar design with all the usual features. The traditionalists still want all metal guns, many even preferring the older German guns.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

There are already several different types of these guns on the market and are very popular.

Beretta's Storm series have polymer frames and DA/SA actions.

The Sig was mentioned.

My son has an FNP9 and absolutely loves it. It has replaced his Walther PPS as his primary carry gun. DA/SA and de-cocker.

CZ makes a great "3rd gen" variant - the CZ Rami. this was available with either alloy frame or polymer. I believe they have discontinued the polymer version as the alloy framed ones were much more popular (S&W- are you listening to this? - That should be a good data point!). The CZ's are DA/SA with a hammer. De-cocker or non de-cocker is available.

The two big myths that keeps being perpetuated are that most people want a "consistent trigger pull every shot" so that DAO guns are preferred by most; and that "on DA/SA guns the first shot, if fired DA, is a throwaway shot".

Absolute nonsense. All of my LEO friends, that are actually shooters, prefer the DA/SA. Most carry SIGs if they have a choice. Lawyers, and LE Bureaucrats, are the ones that insist on striker fired DAO actions.

Most good shooters adjust quickly to the DA/SA action and shoot the first shot well enough or even with little difference from the following SA shots. And unless you have a bobbed hammer, you can always shoot the first shot SA in many situations.

 

[John3200]

Vote with your money. If you like 3rd gen Smith & Wessons then you'll love Sig Sauer P series guns. I have a few Sigs and my P226 is my favorite handgun of all. The only reason I bought my first S&W 3rd gen, a 1076, was that I couldn't get a Sig in 10mm. I've since added a 4506, decocker only, to my collection.

If you can't find the 3rd gen S&W you want go buy a Sig Sauer. You won't be sorry.

 

[John3200]

DA/SA issue? I've seen people mention it in general passing as above but I've never talked to an actual shooter that really had a problem with the transition between first shot DA second shot SA. I personally prefer the DA/SA action on a carry/home defense gun. I think the average non gun person police officer would be safer with a DA/SA gun rather then a basically single action no safety strikers fired gun.

I do see an advantage of the short trigger pull only gun in competition though. But I'm sure we all know that most defense situations aren't a quick draw race.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Vote with your money. If you like 3rd gen Smith & Wessons then you'll love Sig Sauer P series guns. I have a few Sigs and my P226 is my favorite handgun of all. The only reason I bought my first S&W 3rd gen, a 1076, was that I couldn't get a Sig in 10mm. I've since added a 4506, decocker only, to my collection.

If you can't find the 3rd gen S&W you want go buy a Sig Sauer. You won't be sorry.

Exactly- by the way, do you have any P239's?

That's the one I'm thinking about (SAS Gen II)

P239 SAS Gen 2 Two-Tone

Although it might have to wait a bit as I'm eyeing another 4014 and/or 3914 both LNIB.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Sig tried this with the (now discontinued?) Sig Pro series some years back. Not to immediately replace their traditional alloy and steel pistols, but to add a much cheaper DA/SA with hammer and decocker, polymer-framed version of their P226/229 to their line.

They're great guns. Just as reliable and well-made as their P series. For the money, the SP2022 is the best new 9mm you can buy these days. You can find new close-outs for $399. and they're still not popular.

I suspect Sig developed the Sig Pro with the goal of eventually replacing their much more expensive P series with a similar design with all the usual features. The traditionalists still want all metal guns, many even preferring the older German guns.

The Sig Pros are still being made.... but Sig Sauer right now is going through what S&W went through in the early 1990s... their on a different gun a week design marketing.

 

[Silversmok3]

A polymer third generation pistol would be redundant waste of resources for S&W to produce.

The civilian marketplace follows the Law Enforcement trends like a shadow, and what's en vogue among the police units is a bulletproof reliable polymer frame gun that doesn't require actuation of an external safety. New gun shoppers look at a Glock as the standard to compare to, and with that basis in mind a 3rd Generation Smith& Wesson doesn't compare that well. Worse , its competing with its own product in the M&P which is challenging Glock rather nicely right now.

 

[Jim PHL]

Silversmok, I was going to suggest the resources they already have in place as another reason they might consider it. They are already tooled-up to make the "top-ends" and FCG's and would only have to design and produce the frames. (Machinery is likely "moth-balled" since they haven't produced any in so long but one would think not dismantled or destroyed.)

 

[Big Mike]

Jim,

I see what you're saying and I agree! It may be wishful, but put me down for a polymer frame 3rd gen.

 

[Silversmok3]

Silversmok, I was going to suggest the resources they already have in place as another reason they might consider it. They are already tooled-up to make the "top-ends" and FCG's and would only have to design and produce the frames. (Machinery is likely "moth-balled" since they haven't produced any in so long but one would think not dismantled or destroyed.)

Mothballed machinery still costs money to bring back into production. Workers who would be making M&Ps or 1911s or some other S&W product line would need to be shifted back to the 3rd Gen production line , diverting staff and personnel from current and profitable product lines. The matter is not anywhere near as simple as flipping some switches and out comes some 3rd gens!



This would likely be why S&W only builds the 3rd Gen guns today for law enforcement customers who prepay the order, that way the company can be compensated immediately from shifting resources and business capital to making them.They can then be compensated the opportunity cost from doing so right away.

For what its worth I doubt S&W discontinued the guns because they didn't like them. Every time I call the factory regarding the guns the employees own and like them too, which puts paid to the theory that such guns just plain weren't profitable to make anymore. Nothing lasts forever, and the 3rd Generation guns are firearms which cap off a 30 year old run of service pistols. I love my 4566 like the next guy, but their time has passed.

Rather than cry over spent casings and dead history, pick that sucker up and reload it into your 3rd Gen. There is something to be said for buying a used firearm with a decade of use and abuse that still has better build quality than brand new hardware today with 4 figure pricetags.