My apologies because I'm sure this has been covered before, but I can't find one post that gives a definitive answer (if there is one). The standard catalog refers to post 1944 M&P's as "Post War Pre Model 10's". Is there any further breakdown within this category, i.e. are the S and C serial numbers and the hump back and sculpted hammers all lumped together under one designation? I recall reading that only guns which incorporated all engineering changes prior to model numbering are technically considered "Pre" model number. If I recall, the short throw hammer even occurred during this transition. I realize these designations are all terms of art, but for clarity, how do collectors differentiate? Thanks in advance.
Post War M&P vs. Pre Model 10
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Keep in mind there is no definite "rule" and no Pope to make one, but the most logical and generally accepted distinction:
S-prefix with long action until 1948 = post-war M&P
Very late S-prefix and C-prefix with short action from 1948 until the start of model numbering (1958 for this model) = Pre-Model 10
I don't actually think anyone worries much about the "post-war" definition, and you wouldnn't get any complaints if you applied that to any M&P until model numbers. But the Pre-Model 10 designation gets frequently stretched, and on auction sites you can find any fixed-sight K-frame going back to 1899 labeled as such.
S-prefix with long action until 1948 = post-war M&P
Very late S-prefix and C-prefix with short action from 1948 until the start of model numbering (1958 for this model) = Pre-Model 10
I don't actually think anyone worries much about the "post-war" definition, and you wouldnn't get any complaints if you applied that to any M&P until model numbers. But the Pre-Model 10 designation gets frequently stretched, and on auction sites you can find any fixed-sight K-frame going back to 1899 labeled as such.
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CapnB
First, I agree with Absalom's explanation. On the M&P, the break-over point is the beginning of the "high speed" hammer. The first of those was assembled in March, 1948, and shipped on April 7, to Mesbla, Brazil. It carried serial number S990184. Keep in mind that there were S prefix M&P revolvers with higher numbers than that which were assembled with the long action. But those phased out pretty quickly and by the time the C prefix guns were released, the long action was gone.
It is worth noting that there was at least one M&P that got the high speed hammer pre-production. It was S924878 and it was assembled in October, 1947. I don't have shipment info on it, and I suspect it never left Springfield. One of these days I plan to ask Roy to research that one for me.
I personally dislike the "pre-model anything" terminology. But it is so commonly used, I won't kick against the goads. But if it is used on the M&P, I think it is best to use it to refer to those with the high speed hammer up until model-marked guns began shipping in 1958. Examples made after the war and before the spring of 1948, should be called the postwar M&P. After that, I just call them .38 Military & Police. After all, that's what S&W called them.
First, I agree with Absalom's explanation. On the M&P, the break-over point is the beginning of the "high speed" hammer. The first of those was assembled in March, 1948, and shipped on April 7, to Mesbla, Brazil. It carried serial number S990184. Keep in mind that there were S prefix M&P revolvers with higher numbers than that which were assembled with the long action. But those phased out pretty quickly and by the time the C prefix guns were released, the long action was gone.
It is worth noting that there was at least one M&P that got the high speed hammer pre-production. It was S924878 and it was assembled in October, 1947. I don't have shipment info on it, and I suspect it never left Springfield. One of these days I plan to ask Roy to research that one for me.
I personally dislike the "pre-model anything" terminology. But it is so commonly used, I won't kick against the goads. But if it is used on the M&P, I think it is best to use it to refer to those with the high speed hammer up until model-marked guns began shipping in 1958. Examples made after the war and before the spring of 1948, should be called the postwar M&P. After that, I just call them .38 Military & Police. After all, that's what S&W called them.
CapnB
First, I agree with Absalom's explanation. On the M&P, the break-over point is the beginning of the "high speed" hammer. The first of those was assembled in March, 1948, and shipped on April 7, to Mesbla, Brazil. It carried serial number S990184. Keep in mind that there were S prefix M&P revolvers with higher numbers than that which were assembled with the long action. But those phased out pretty quickly and by the time the C prefix guns were released, the long action was gone.
It is worth noting that there was at least one M&P that got the high speed hammer pre-production. It was S924878 and it was assembled in October, 1947. I don't have shipment info on it, and I suspect it never left Springfield. One of these days I plan to ask Roy to research that one for me.
I personally dislike the "pre-model anything" terminology. But it is so commonly used, I won't kick against the goads. But if it is used on the M&P, I think it is best to use it to refer to those with the high speed hammer up until model-marked guns began shipping in 1958. Examples made after the war and before the spring of 1948, should be called the postwar M&P. After that, I just call them .38 Military & Police. After all, that's what S&W called them.
So, just to be clear, when you speak of the "high speed hammer" are you talking about the geometry of the action or is that the actual name that applies to the sculpted or so-called "fish hook" hammer? I guess what I'm asking is, if it has the sculpted hammer does that always signify the short action? Sorry to be dense
.
Both. The geometry changed to reduce the fall time of the hammer. And "High Speed" is what S&W called it.
Yes.
Here is a contemporary box (look on the far right):
This one is from a K-22, but the language is the same on the M&P boxes.
DWalt
Member
You may see the High Speed Hammer referred to as the "Speed Hammer". Same thing. Idea was a shorter hammer fall shortens the lock time (by a miniscule amount). Some feel the old long action is smoother in DA. The "Fish-Hook" hammer style on M&Ps seems to have disappeared around 1955 but I don't know exactly when. I believe it was never used on the K-series revolvers.
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Thanks to all for the very informative responses. I handed MrsB this thread and told her this is why I spend WAY too much time on this forum (and will continue to do so). Fortunately for me, she approves of my "little hobby". Good shootin',
Doug
. Fortunately for me, she approves of my "little hobby". Good shootin',Doug
A quick and dirty test for the M&P is if the serial starts with "S" there is a miniscule chance it has a speed hammer. If it starts with "C" it almost certainly has the speed hammer. I don't know what numbers we are talking here...dozens, hundreds that don't pass this test? Maybe Jack has data on this?
ParadiseRoad
Member
...how did the transition from One Line Address to Four Line Address fit in with the change in action...are there any One Line Speed Hammers...or Four Line long actions out there?...
Targets Guy
US Veteran
S976836, shipped 3/1/48; long throw hammer
C113082, shipped 9/50; speed hammer - it has the little notch
C113082, shipped 9/50; speed hammer - it has the little notch
DWalt
Member
The changeover from 1-line to 4-line address seems to have started on guns shipped in the May-June 1948 period. And that was also about the same time that the changeover from the long action to the short action began. Anyone's guess which one came first at the factory, probably some overlap depending on the exact revolver type.
Here are a few comments:
1. As to the name, "high speed hammer" vs. "speed hammer," people may call it the latter, but I find no evidence S&W ever did. In the published material, it is called the "high speed hammer." In internal discussions, it is sometimes referred to as the "short action hammer." Not that it makes any difference. Call it what you like. After all, people keep calling the M&P from the 1920s a Model 1905 Fourth Change . . .
2. Records show S990184 as the first production M&P to have the high speed hammer. The lowest number I have located is S990806, shipped in March, 1948. But, at least 1,000 examples with higher numbers exist that were fitted with the old long action. So, those parts were being used up, even as production began on frames fitted with the new hammer design. Incidentally, all of the .32 M&Ps with S prefix numbers that I have located had the old long action, no matter how high the serial number is.
3. The conclusion I've come to (tentatively) is that roughly 9,000 S prefix M&P revolvers were produced with the high speed hammer. Out of the approximately 188,000 S prefix guns made, that is a small number (about 4.8%).
4. I have never seen nor heard of a C prefix .38 Special revolver that has the older long action. I don't believe they exist.
Research update:
My database now contains information on nearly 2400 examples of the commercially sold SV and S revolvers (by far most of them have the simple S prefix). I recently told someone on this Forum that the database has about 1500 in it, but I had forgotten another 900 set off in a separate section, when I made that statement. I went through the spreadsheet this morning and found them. So, roughly 2400, total. Nearly enough now to do some useful analysis of the data. Thanks to all of you who have contributed.
Keep the information coming, please.
My database now contains information on nearly 2400 examples of the commercially sold SV and S revolvers (by far most of them have the simple S prefix). I recently told someone on this Forum that the database has about 1500 in it, but I had forgotten another 900 set off in a separate section, when I made that statement. I went through the spreadsheet this morning and found them. So, roughly 2400, total. Nearly enough now to do some useful analysis of the data. Thanks to all of you who have contributed.
Keep the information coming, please.
Very clearly, the change-over to the high speed hammer began first. Here's the story.
To begin with, I'm talking only about the M&P fixed sight revolver. I cannot speak with any authority about the target K frames.
1. The first production M&P with the short action was S990184. This is clearly stated in Hellstrom's notes. It shipped on April 7, 1948, so it had to have been assembled before that (I believe sometime in March, 1948).
2. There was at least one pre-production example, also according to Hellstrom's notes. It was put together clear back in October, 1947 (I assume in the tool room). It seems obvious the engineers were working on the hammer improvement for quite a while before it went into production.
3. Above S991315, I find only one M&P with the long action (serial number S996765). It shipped in June, 1948. Every example I've found between those two numbers and above S996765 has the high speed hammer (except the odd .32 examples, mentioned in my previous post).
4. Revolver number C1 was assembled on March 22, 1948. I don't have a ship date for it. It, of course, has the high speed hammer, but a one-line address.
5. All C prefix guns have the short action, but not all of them have the four line address (although most do). I have never seen an S prefix gun that has the four line address. (Ooops! Mistake. I just went through the database again and found an exception. C58672 has the long action. It shipped on April 20, 1949, and has a 2" barrel. It is clearly an oddball, but at least one exists.)
6. Most of the S prefix guns had shipped by August, 1948. I have found only one that shipped later, and it left the factory in August, 1949! Clearly it got lost in the vault.
7. C prefix guns had been shipping for quite a while by August, 1948, and the vast majority of them had the four line address.
The preponderance of evidence leads to the conclusion that the switch to the high speed action was well under way before management decided to add three lines to the address on the frame.
There definitely are guns with the one line address and the high speed hammer - a few of them live in my safe.
Conversely, there are not many four line guns with the long action; at least I've only located one (see note 5 above). Other exceptions might be guns that went back to the service department for work and had the new address put on them; a practice that Roy had to stop.
I hope this post clears up some things for you and others.
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S&W called them .38 Military and Police because the model 10 had not been assigned yet. They would not have referred to those made immediately prior to 1957 as pre model anything because it hadn't happened yet.
It reminds me of the discussion of BC and AD when talking about the calendar. People in 2,000 BC didn't use BC because they had never even heard of Christ.
My understanding from those that do not think any .38 M&P is considered a pre model is that only those that have the same features as the model 10 but made prior to 1957 would be considered a pre model. Those made before pre models are merely .38 M&P's.
The other difficulty with trying to tie this to specific dates or serial numbers is that S&W manufacture dates and shipping dates are not the same and can be months apart. That combined with new and old parts being mixed together and having all kinds of products made around these transition times.
S&W was in the business to build guns and sell inventory not tie changes to dates or serial numbers.
This is my opinion and worth every penny that was paid for it.
It reminds me of the discussion of BC and AD when talking about the calendar. People in 2,000 BC didn't use BC because they had never even heard of Christ.
My understanding from those that do not think any .38 M&P is considered a pre model is that only those that have the same features as the model 10 but made prior to 1957 would be considered a pre model. Those made before pre models are merely .38 M&P's.
The other difficulty with trying to tie this to specific dates or serial numbers is that S&W manufacture dates and shipping dates are not the same and can be months apart. That combined with new and old parts being mixed together and having all kinds of products made around these transition times.
S&W was in the business to build guns and sell inventory not tie changes to dates or serial numbers.
This is my opinion and worth every penny that was paid for it.
ParadiseRoad
Member
Very clearly, the change-over to the high speed hammer began first. Here's the story.
To begin with, I'm talking only about the M&P fixed sight revolver. I cannot speak with any authority about the target K frames.
1. The first production M&P with the short action was S990184. This is clearly stated in Hellstrom's notes. It shipped on April 7, 1948, so it had to have been assembled before that (I believe sometime in March, 1948).
2. There was at least one pre-production example, also according to Hellstrom's notes. It was put together clear back in October, 1947 (I assume in the tool room). It seems obvious the engineers were working on the hammer improvement for quite a while before it went into production.
3. Above S991315, I find only one M&P with the long action (serial number S996765). It shipped in June, 1948. Every example I've found between those two numbers and above S996765 has the high speed hammer (except the odd .32 examples, mentioned in my previous post).
4. Revolver number C1 was assembled on March 22, 1948. I don't have a ship date for it. It, of course, has the high speed hammer, but a one-line address.
5. All C prefix guns have the short action, but not all of them have the four line address (although most do). I have never seen an S prefix gun that has the four line address. (Ooops! Mistake. I just went through the database again and found an exception. C58672 has the long action. It shipped on April 20, 1949, and has a 2" barrel. It is clearly an oddball, but at least one exists.)
6. Most of the S prefix guns had shipped by August, 1948. I have found only one that shipped later, and it left the factory in August, 1949! Clearly it got lost in the vault.
7. C prefix guns had been shipping for quite a while by August, 1948, and the vast majority of them had the four line address.
The preponderance of evidence leads to the conclusion that the switch to the high speed action was well under way before management decided to add three lines to the address on the frame.
There definitely are guns with the one line address and the high speed hammer - a few of them live in my safe.
Conversely, there are not many four line guns with the long action; at least I've only located one (see note 5 above). Other exceptions might be guns that went back to the service department for work and had the new address put on them; a practice that Roy had to stop.
I hope this post clears up some things for you and others.
...Thanks, Jack...1948 was certainly an interesting year at S&W...
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
With all these "collector's terms", the best approach is to handle them according to their usefulness. Some folks have a tendency to treat them as the S&W equivalent of a Masonic handshake, to show that they're "initiates" who know the secret language, which is pretty silly.
Talking on a platform like this, where a minimum standard of knowledge can be expected and people want to learn, precision is helpful, and limiting the Pre-Model definition to a clear and specific range promotes clarity.
For the average revolver owner or Gunbroker customer, which likely includes 90% plus of all S&W owners, using the Pre-Model 10 label to explain why a gun looks, walks, and quacks like a Model 10, but isn't marked as such, seems to work perfectly fine, without worrying about the differences between an M&P from 1935 and one from 1952.
It's the same with other terminology that's not contemporaneous, like the changes (functionally irrelevant and mostly internal), or the screw count (functionally irrelevant, but at least visually helpful for quick identification).
Use when helpful, avoid when not, and resist the temptation to show off unless asked. (I know I'm an abject failure on the last point.)
Talking on a platform like this, where a minimum standard of knowledge can be expected and people want to learn, precision is helpful, and limiting the Pre-Model definition to a clear and specific range promotes clarity.
For the average revolver owner or Gunbroker customer, which likely includes 90% plus of all S&W owners, using the Pre-Model 10 label to explain why a gun looks, walks, and quacks like a Model 10, but isn't marked as such, seems to work perfectly fine, without worrying about the differences between an M&P from 1935 and one from 1952.
It's the same with other terminology that's not contemporaneous, like the changes (functionally irrelevant and mostly internal), or the screw count (functionally irrelevant, but at least visually helpful for quick identification).
Use when helpful, avoid when not, and resist the temptation to show off unless asked. (I know I'm an abject failure on the last point.)
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DWalt
Member
It is correct to say that both the 4-line address (the one-line address is not actually an address, unless you consider "Made in U.S.A." to be an address) and the change to a short action occurred at approximately the same time. But I doubt that those changes were related to each other in any way. I have understood that the reason for using a 4-line address had something to do with adding the "Marcas Registradas" phrase which indicates that the S&W trademark is registered in Spanish-speaking countries, a legal thing.
And indeed terms and phrases like "pre-Model xx", "Pre-War", "Post-War", "Transition", and "Model of 1905, 4th Change" and many others are pure collector speak. S&W never used them, but most collectors do as shorthand.
And indeed terms and phrases like "pre-Model xx", "Pre-War", "Post-War", "Transition", and "Model of 1905, 4th Change" and many others are pure collector speak. S&W never used them, but most collectors do as shorthand.
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