Pre 1856 S&W Flobert (metallic ctg.) & Rollin white patent (bored through cylinder)
In the beginning days of my S&W collecting I had been enthralled by the History of S&W at the very start. I began to seek out a Volcanic (at least a representative model ) and a Flobert Pistol.
In the beginning of Horace Smith and D.B. Wesson's second venture (after selling the Volcanic patents to Oliver Winchester) set out to make a new type of pistol (old Americana name by definition) or revolver with a self contained cartridge.
This presented 2 problems:
1. Louis Flobert was a French gunsmith held the patent(s) on what evolved to the "cartridge" ... and ...
2. Rollin White held the patent to the bored through cylinder.
Read this great little webpage: The model 1: Smith & Wesson's little rimfire. - Free Online Library
I began by trying to find one of each (in nicest shape possible) of each Rollin White patent infringement guns which grew into an overwhelming task which I stopped after purchasing several different types.
I sought and found 2 very nice New Haven Arms Volcanics, one about 20 years ago and it's twin brother about 3 years ago). I did find 2 Flobert pistols about 20 years ago taking them out for the first time last week. Our local club had a speaker on "French" manufactured firearms asking all member to bring whatever they owned.
I had posted pix of the 2 Volcanics a few years back but never the Floberts. I have reposted the picture of the Volcanics which I named for my twin sons. While the value of the Volcanics hit peaks and valleys at times, they still have a definitive value.
In prior years the Volcanics had a moderate to high value for that older time frame. Starting with Gary Garbrecht's Volcanics in 2005 selling at auction in the $40,000 and up (IIRC) they started to take off into the stratosphere.
World's Record: One, identical, New Haven Arms, hit an all time (and VERY suspicious) high auction value in December 2007 Rock Island Auction at a whopping $143,000.00 (buyer's premium included) for the exact same model but with no silver plating over the engraved frame. It was in what was supposed to be the partial bottom only of the original 1857-ish pressboard box and an original "new" find with an elaborate story of how and where it was found.
Read last paragraph: Rock Island cards record-breaking 2007 - Antique Trader
QUOTE: "Not all lever action weapons are rifles, as illustrated by the “Volcanic” series of pistols made by Volcanic Repeating Arms Company, reorganized as New Haven Arms. The Volcanics were very early lever operated pistols made in the 1850s. This sale featured “The Finest Known 3 Inch Volcanic Pistol,” a new in the original box model made in 1857 following the reorganization that marked the beginning of Oliver Winchester’s involvement in the manufacture of repeating weapons. This rare New Haven Arms No. 1 Pocket Pistol, in .31 cal., sold for nearly twice the estimate at $143,750, another record mark for genre." END
The Volcanics are secondary to the main subject ... the Flobert pistols. These, manufactured approximately 1848-1855, I feel are also a intricate part of S&W History.
Coming down the pike now a few decades after I purchased them, I have no clue what the value might be. A member of my local collectors club offered to purchase them. Rightfully so, he asked me for a price. I very candidly stated, I had no clue what a "fair" value would be. He's awaiting my call back.
Is anyone familiar with the Floberts ? The few I had been able to find as past sales, none were near the quality of the 2 I have and another was a cased, matched set priced at $9,500.00. I have one the full size ( like size shape and ornate wood as one of the fore mentioned in the cased set but that set is much more ornate ) and another about 3" shorter.
In comparison, a local collector / weekend show warrior said they don't sell for more than $400 unless you're at the Baltimore or Tulsa or Vegas show. (he offered me $500 for the pair). Now, I'm really confused. LOL. So, they go back in the safe for another 20 years for my son to sell them.
The instructions to pause for caustion is usually "buyer beware". I'd like to add to that, "seller beware", too !
In places I see them listed as "parlor pistols". Why ? I don't know for sure.
I have not ever found a printed reference on Flobert pistols and / or rifles but I see from some offered were also made in Germany, Belgium and other places.
I'm concerned only with the genuine "Flobert". The larger one has an address engraved on the barrel: " Brurr Arq'r a Paris" and not much else. Partial proof marks seem to be covered by the stock. The smaller one, near identical to the larger (wood, barrel, lockwork etc) I cannot find any makers markings but has several gold inlaid swirls and a rifled barrel. Both seem to be .22 / 6mm likely the .22 BB ro CB cap type.
Appear the barrel would need to be removed from the stock to read whatever other markings there may be but at this juncture I would not venture removing the engraved screws as not to risk damaging them.
In the beginning days of my S&W collecting I had been enthralled by the History of S&W at the very start. I began to seek out a Volcanic (at least a representative model ) and a Flobert Pistol.
In the beginning of Horace Smith and D.B. Wesson's second venture (after selling the Volcanic patents to Oliver Winchester) set out to make a new type of pistol (old Americana name by definition) or revolver with a self contained cartridge.
This presented 2 problems:
1. Louis Flobert was a French gunsmith held the patent(s) on what evolved to the "cartridge" ... and ...
2. Rollin White held the patent to the bored through cylinder.
Read this great little webpage: The model 1: Smith & Wesson's little rimfire. - Free Online Library
I began by trying to find one of each (in nicest shape possible) of each Rollin White patent infringement guns which grew into an overwhelming task which I stopped after purchasing several different types.
I sought and found 2 very nice New Haven Arms Volcanics, one about 20 years ago and it's twin brother about 3 years ago). I did find 2 Flobert pistols about 20 years ago taking them out for the first time last week. Our local club had a speaker on "French" manufactured firearms asking all member to bring whatever they owned.
I had posted pix of the 2 Volcanics a few years back but never the Floberts. I have reposted the picture of the Volcanics which I named for my twin sons. While the value of the Volcanics hit peaks and valleys at times, they still have a definitive value.
In prior years the Volcanics had a moderate to high value for that older time frame. Starting with Gary Garbrecht's Volcanics in 2005 selling at auction in the $40,000 and up (IIRC) they started to take off into the stratosphere.
World's Record: One, identical, New Haven Arms, hit an all time (and VERY suspicious) high auction value in December 2007 Rock Island Auction at a whopping $143,000.00 (buyer's premium included) for the exact same model but with no silver plating over the engraved frame. It was in what was supposed to be the partial bottom only of the original 1857-ish pressboard box and an original "new" find with an elaborate story of how and where it was found.
Read last paragraph: Rock Island cards record-breaking 2007 - Antique Trader
QUOTE: "Not all lever action weapons are rifles, as illustrated by the “Volcanic” series of pistols made by Volcanic Repeating Arms Company, reorganized as New Haven Arms. The Volcanics were very early lever operated pistols made in the 1850s. This sale featured “The Finest Known 3 Inch Volcanic Pistol,” a new in the original box model made in 1857 following the reorganization that marked the beginning of Oliver Winchester’s involvement in the manufacture of repeating weapons. This rare New Haven Arms No. 1 Pocket Pistol, in .31 cal., sold for nearly twice the estimate at $143,750, another record mark for genre." END
The Volcanics are secondary to the main subject ... the Flobert pistols. These, manufactured approximately 1848-1855, I feel are also a intricate part of S&W History.
Coming down the pike now a few decades after I purchased them, I have no clue what the value might be. A member of my local collectors club offered to purchase them. Rightfully so, he asked me for a price. I very candidly stated, I had no clue what a "fair" value would be. He's awaiting my call back.
Is anyone familiar with the Floberts ? The few I had been able to find as past sales, none were near the quality of the 2 I have and another was a cased, matched set priced at $9,500.00. I have one the full size ( like size shape and ornate wood as one of the fore mentioned in the cased set but that set is much more ornate ) and another about 3" shorter.
In comparison, a local collector / weekend show warrior said they don't sell for more than $400 unless you're at the Baltimore or Tulsa or Vegas show. (he offered me $500 for the pair). Now, I'm really confused. LOL. So, they go back in the safe for another 20 years for my son to sell them.
The instructions to pause for caustion is usually "buyer beware". I'd like to add to that, "seller beware", too !
In places I see them listed as "parlor pistols". Why ? I don't know for sure.
I have not ever found a printed reference on Flobert pistols and / or rifles but I see from some offered were also made in Germany, Belgium and other places.
I'm concerned only with the genuine "Flobert". The larger one has an address engraved on the barrel: " Brurr Arq'r a Paris" and not much else. Partial proof marks seem to be covered by the stock. The smaller one, near identical to the larger (wood, barrel, lockwork etc) I cannot find any makers markings but has several gold inlaid swirls and a rifled barrel. Both seem to be .22 / 6mm likely the .22 BB ro CB cap type.
Appear the barrel would need to be removed from the stock to read whatever other markings there may be but at this juncture I would not venture removing the engraved screws as not to risk damaging them.
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