policerevolvercollector
Member
Would it be accurate to say that the "Pre Model 10" started with the "SV" series and ended in the mid "C" series? Circa 1946-1958?
Best,
Charles
Best,
Charles
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Pre Model 10 Number Range??
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Not strictly speaking. Most collectors consider the pre-Model 10 as starting with the switch to the short action in 1948, in the late S-prefix. Jack can tell you at which serial.
PS: Just found the document. S 990184.
PS: Just found the document. S 990184.
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Targets Guy
US Veteran
As I read the SCSW it says it was the "S" prefix beginning as early as Dec 1944. Others have told me it was Apr 1948 with the new short throw hammer action (S990184).
I think you could make a case with the "SV" series given they still use that fix.
I think you could make a case with the "SV" series given they still use that fix.
DWalt
Member
As the Model 10 has the short action high speed hammer, as first incorporated in April 1948 manufacture, and the SV-series does not, the "pre-Model 10" logically should be considered as starting there.
larryofcc
SWCA Member
In my meager collection I have # S-987266. It has the old style long throw hammer. Supposedly shipped 4-1948,( I am awaiting a letter). I think it is still considered a M&P Pre M10 while not a M1905 4th change? I may be wrong on this. These were only made for 2 years or so. Not real common. I bought this one from a Forum member. Nice revolver. Big Larry
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The "Model 1905, 4th change" is a collector designation generally not applied to M&P's after WW II; S&W actually dropped the "Model 1905" designation after WW I, and the "4th change" has been purely a collector category anyways.
The "Pre-Model 10" designation also is NOT any kind of official designation. S&W never used it on a box or in a catalog. So I wish people would stop saying things like "This is not a Pre-Model 10". As long as it is an M&P from before the model numbers were introduced, calling it a Pre-Model 10 is not wrong as such.
The meaning and usefulness of the term depends on user consensus. And all one can legitimately say is that it makes sense to limit the term to those M&P's which in all essential engineering features (disregarding minor cosmetics like ramped front sight and top sideplate screw) are Model 10's in all but the number. And the last major engineering change was the introduction of the short action in 1948.
Your gun does not have that, so I would not call it a Pre-Model 10.
Nice one, by the way.
Hi Charles
Keep in mind that designations such as "pre-model" this or that, are completely artificial. They were created by collectors as a shorthand way of identifying general classifications when discussing guns among themselves. So there likely is never going to be complete unanimity about how they are used.
That said, Absalom's comment expresses the majority sentiment that the "pre-Model 10" group begins with the advent of the "High Speed" hammer in the spring of 1948, and ends with the appearance of model marked guns in 1958.
Existing factory floor notes indicate production of the M&P revolver with the High Speed hammer (short action) began with serial number S990184, produced on April 7, 1948. As with virtually all changes, that is not a hard and fast transition point for this feature. A few revolvers with higher serial numbers were built using the old long action. One such example in my database is S990658, a 5" M&P. There are others, but the vast majority of revolvers with serial numbers higher than S990184 have the short action and would be considered "pre-Model 10" revolvers by those who use that designation.
Among "odd facts" I would note that M&P #S990806 has the High Speed hammer, as we would expect it to. However, it letters as having been shipped in March, 1948. That is the month prior to actual assembly of S990184, which is considered the beginning of production for the new design. To me, this suggests two things: 1) that guns were not always assembled in serial order; and 2) that S990806 might have been a pre-production example of the new hammer configuration. It is easy to imagine the company assembling a few copies of the new version to see how it went before beginning full production using the new parts. But, of course, I'm speculating here because we don't have all the facts.
To directly address your question, I would not say that any SV guns fit the criterion for being called "pre-Model 10" revolvers because all of them had the long action. I would say that all C prefix revolvers that are not model marked would fit the criterion, since all of them had the short action. Also, some number less than 9816 of the S prefix guns would also fit the criterion. Exactly how many of those there were we probably will never know.
To throw another wrinkle into the production numbers, I'll point out that there were some S prefix frames with numbers higher than S990184 that were made up as .32 caliber M&P revolvers with 5" barrels and most (if not all) of them had the long action. There may have been as many as 1,000 of these, since one shipment in April, 1948 alone totaled 910. There were also some .32 caliber M&Ps with 2" barrels. These had serial numbers in the S998xxx range and at least some (apparently most) of them were shipped to Shanghai, China. The only one that I've actually seen had the High Speed hammer and it was not among those that went to China. It shipped on August 12, 1949, to a distributor in Springfield, IL.
So the story of the S prefix guns from 1946-48 is quite complex. It is an interesting tale that I hope to be able to tell in greater detail, once I complete my research.
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See my previous post in this thread and Absalom's also. I think we have thoroughly addressed the issue. The definition tends to be flexible depending on whom you ask, but the majority opinion is the cross-over point is the appearance of the High Speed hammer.
I have it in my database as April, '48. Will you kindly let me know when the letter arrives and confirm that date? Also, the receiving location would be of interest.
Thanks!
larryofcc
SWCA Member
Jack, my check was cashed last week so I will be getting the letter soon. I will post it when it gets here. Thanks, Big Larry
larryofcc
SWCA Member
In my meager collection I have # S-987266. It has the old style long throw hammer. Supposedly shipped 4-1948,( I am awaiting a letter). I think it is still considered a M&P Pre M10 while not a M1905 4th change? I may be wrong on this. These were only made for 2 years or so. Not real common. I bought this one from a Forum member. Nice revolver. Big Larry
Anyone have a picture of vintage 38 Special from this era? Thanks, Big Larry
DWalt
Member
"To throw another wrinkle into the production numbers, I'll point out that there were some S prefix frames with numbers higher than S990184 that were made up as .32 caliber M&P revolvers with 5" barrels and most (if not all) of them had the long action. There may have been as many as 1,000 of these, since one shipment in April, 1948 alone totaled 910. There were also some .32 caliber M&Ps with 2" barrels. These had serial numbers in the S998xxx range and at least some (apparently most) of them were shipped to Shanghai, China. The only one that I've actually seen had the High Speed hammer and it was not among those that went to China."
I have a 5" M&P in .32 Long, SN S9911xx which shipped in 4/48 to New York City, and it has the old long action. It's a bit difficult to research these, but from what I have found, most of them were made with a 4" barrel, and most were in the C49000-C71500 SN range, with some in the S-series. There were 4813 made in total, all barrel lengths (2", 4", and 5"). This is the first time I have seen anything about any of the .32 Long M&Ps being sent to China. For sure, at least two 2" .32 M&Ps were not exported, and another 2" one ended up in Brazil, but that may not have been its original destination. I have often wondered why these .32 M&Ps are so rare in the USA. My S&W letter says only that they were made for "a large overseas export order" with no indication as to exactly where they may have been sent. I can believe that if most were made for export, very few of them made it back to the USA.
I have a 5" M&P in .32 Long, SN S9911xx which shipped in 4/48 to New York City, and it has the old long action. It's a bit difficult to research these, but from what I have found, most of them were made with a 4" barrel, and most were in the C49000-C71500 SN range, with some in the S-series. There were 4813 made in total, all barrel lengths (2", 4", and 5"). This is the first time I have seen anything about any of the .32 Long M&Ps being sent to China. For sure, at least two 2" .32 M&Ps were not exported, and another 2" one ended up in Brazil, but that may not have been its original destination. I have often wondered why these .32 M&Ps are so rare in the USA. My S&W letter says only that they were made for "a large overseas export order" with no indication as to exactly where they may have been sent. I can believe that if most were made for export, very few of them made it back to the USA.
