Pre War 38/44 Outdoorsman King Super Target

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Those of you who know me know I am quite fond of 38/44 OD's, King Gun Sight modifications, and Roper Stocks. So, when a fellow forum and SWCA member offered me this 38/44 King Super Target, I simply couldn't say no ;)

The gun was definitely used for its intended purpose and was not a safe queen but I think its still pretty and hasn't been mistreated. The Ropers are very nice with some dings along the bottom edge. I'm not sure how long they have been with this gun as they are numbered in pencil to a different revolver.

























Pre War 38/44 Outdoorsman with serial number 40342 shipped from the factory on December 24, 1931, and was delivered to J. J. Skelly, a factory salesman covering the New England area. The revolver was charged out to Skelly on memo account along with a fixed sight M&P and an M&P target. The gun came with 2 letters, one from 1996 and one from 2009.





From looking at the documents from the SWHF, it appears these guns were lent out on memo account to Skelly so he could call on Lieutenant James E Hughes of the Massachusetts State Police Training School, who, per his letter dated 12/24/31, was in the market to purchase 8 new revolvers for his pistol team. He requested that the salesman (Skelly) bring a few samples for him to choose from.



It appears, the three revolvers were lent out to Skelly on 12/28/31 to make his sales call to Hughes. I'd assume Hughes was able to test fire all 3 guns at that time to make his decision on which model to order for the shooting team.







On 1/7/32, an invoice was created showing a 38/44 to be forwarded immediately to Hughes. Also, Skelly wrote on Hughes original letter (shown above), referencing the 1/7/32 order and stating that Hughes needed a 38/44 to show his supervisor (I assume to make the case to the supervisor that the 38/44 was the gun he wanted for his shooting team). Its unclear whether or not this was the same (subject) 38/44 that was lent out to Skelly or another revolver.



It's hard to say where this 38/44 ended up after it accompanied Skelly on his sales call on 12/28/31, but I think we can all agree it must have made it into the hands of a serious target shooter who wanted it outfitted with one of those King Super Target Ribs and Cockeyed Hammers! :)

You will also notice that in the older of the two letters, circa 1996, Roy stated in the last sentence of the letter that he believed the hammer to be of S&W manufacture rather than King. I'm not so certain of that as it looks 100% like most all the King hammers I have ever seen. It is marked "Pat Pend" on the bottom of the spur, this is the first time I have ever seen (or at least noticed) this. It would be interesting if there were any factory documented target style hammers from this period that might lend credence to the notion of it being a factory product.

 
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Kris:

Love the Supertarget O/D. Congrats on a great acquisition and a lot of cool information.:cool:

Thanks for sharing,
 
Great gun, and great pictures. The documents that go along with it are just icing on the cake! I can't wait to hear how it shoots. I'll bet it shoots like a dream. Congrats on adding this gem to your already impressive King collection.
 
Scott,

I have not shot it yet; I actually have never shot ANY of my King Guns :(. I need to plan a range trip and take them all :)
 
Kris,

If we were closer, we could have a King's range day.


Maybe there is a way to do this.....road trip anyone?

I'd love that but we are just a tad bit too far away! ;)

I have a lot of guns I'd like to shoot but with 2 kids, work, and other duties, I haven't had enough time to take them to the range and still have enough time left over to thoroughly clean all of them when I get home. So, for now, they are all nestled in the safe ;)
 
That is a sweet revolver, I love the King target pistols. If it was mine I would shoot it every change I got.
 
Very nice Kris, you are finding some real nice guns. The Super King Targets are the nicest looking guns out there. How many do you have now? Larry


Larry,

This is my first Super Target ribbed gun but my 5th gun with King modifications. They are a favorite of mine that's for certain :)
 
Kris:

When I started getting into prewar S&W's I came across a King SuperTarget 38/44 Outdoorsman for sale at a very reasonable price. I thought that it was cool, but I passed it up, because it was "modified" and not original. Little did I know that I'd still be kicking myself over that decision many years later.

I've got one of the "junior" Outdoorsman Super Target in 22LR:) But, I'm still looking for the "full size" one...
 
I have only one King "Cockeyed" Hammer (and it's marked/stamped as such) on an (22) Outdoorsman. The design/configuration/checkering pattern of both mine and this hammer (as near as I can tell from the photos) are identical. Mine does not have "Pat Pend" stamped on the bottom of the spur, rather what appears to be the initials B A (something), and what appears to be a five digit date.

I suspect I can read everything if I remove the hammer, and will be happy to do so if you wish.

The only relevant comment in the letter on my gun is: "The cock-eyed hammer must have been added at a later date. Smith & Wesson did ship a few handguns with this style of hammer at an extra charge of $1.00."

Ralph Tremaine

It is perhaps noteworthy that my gun was shipped later-------March 20, 1934 (to a gentleman in California---along with an (38/44) Outdoorsman-----with matched light trigger pulls).
 
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Words have meaning-----"Pat Pend." for example. Those words mean an application for a patent has been made. I'm fairly certain that's all it means. It occurs to me (never mind I don't know what I'm talking about) the act of grinding the spur off a hammer and welding a different style spur back on, while clever, may not be sufficient (in and of itself) to earn a patent.

My uninformed speculation continues: The hammer spur on this gun is identical in all respects to the spur on my gun---except for the fact this spur says "Pat Pend" on it, and mine has some initials and numbers on it. Given this gun was shipped before mine, I choose to suppose it was modified before mine. I choose to suppose further no patent was awarded to King, and they stopped marking "Pat Pend" on their spur----and started marking it with some initials and numbers (which had meaning to them). I suppose also that while S&W certainly had the capability to remove and replace a hammer spur, they also had enough sense to realize such was not the best use of their time----and while they did, in fact, "ship a few guns with this style of hammer", they didn't make them. And they didn't make them because they had an ongoing relationship with someone who did---someone like King.

The next question requiring an answer is when did that ongoing relationship begin?

Then one must wonder how much King charged for a "Cockeyed" hammer-----retail. (Jinks says the "few" such hammers S&W "shipped" went out the door at $1.)

After that comes how much might King have charged S&W for a ("few") "Cockeyed" hammers-----that would be the same S&W that was likely going to move a bunch of sights for them. It might even be the same S&W that was going to make them a really, really good deal on a bunch of hammers----so they (King) could give their retail customers immediate turnaround on their hammers.

And the beat goes on!!

That said, it's time to go to bed!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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After that comes how much might King have charged S&W for a ("few") "Cockeyed" hammers-----that would be the same S&W that was likely going to move a bunch of sights for them. It might even be the same S&W that was going to make them a really, really good deal on a bunch of hammers----so they (King) could give their retail customers immediate turnaround on their hammers.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph
I showed that gun to Roy Jinks at the annual in Troy. It already had a factory letter. Before I showed him what was written, he commented "Thats one of our hammers". That's good enough for me, Pat Pending or not.
 
After that comes how much might King have charged S&W for a ("few") "Cockeyed" hammers-----that would be the same S&W that was likely going to move a bunch of sights for them. It might even be the same S&W that was going to make them a really, really good deal on a bunch of hammers----so they (King) could give their retail customers immediate turnaround on their hammers.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph
I showed that gun to Roy Jinks at the annual in Troy. It already had a factory letter. Before I showed him what was written, he commented "Thats one of our hammers". That's good enough for me, Pat Pending or not.

Your faith is commendable!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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