I am looking for a pre war 4" nickel Heavy Duty in the Classifieds and I am looking for any comments as to the rarity of the 4" pre war HD's in either finish (blue or nickel) from the experts such as BruceHMX (who was co-authoring a very well researched an article on Heavy Duty's with S&W Historian Roy Jinks), handejector, bmg60, Larkworthy, 1Aspenhill, or any others that may have such information about this rare variation of a pre war Heavy Duty.
Question on 4” Pre War Heavy Duty’s for the experts….
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I am looking for a pre war 4" nickel Heavy Duty in the Classifieds and I am looking for any comments as to the rarity of the 4" pre war HD's in either finish (blue or nickel) from the experts such as BruceHMX (who was co-authoring a very well researched an article on Heavy Duty's with S&W Historian Roy Jinks), handejector, bmg60, Larkworthy, 1Aspenhill, or any others that may have such information about this rare variation of a pre war Heavy Duty.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I am certainly no expert but until they show up I'll kill some time.
I have a 4" pre-war HD that I bought at a local show a couple months ago. I knew that the 5" barrel was the standard for the early guns but I didn't realize how rare the 4" pre-war HDs were until I heard from Bill about mine. If I understood his message correctly, he figures maybe 80 or so were sold. I'm sure he'll correct this if I am mistaken. I don't know if anyone knows the distribution of blue/nickel but I would assume the number of nickel guns would be small and maybe none were in nickel originally. Mine was shipped in blue to the Ft. Smith, AR Police Department in 1940 and wears a humpback hammer (the tip of which was broken or ground off adding to the gun's misery).
Unfortunately, it was poorly refinished in nickel with the lettering badly buffed out. A shame a rare gun was ruined but I paid a shooter price for it and I enjoy it.
I had a photo of my shabby gun posted until I went and saw the fabulous example you are trying to trade. I didn't realize you already had one. I am not sure if you will find a gun equal to yours. You may have the best one that exists.
I have a 4" pre-war HD that I bought at a local show a couple months ago. I knew that the 5" barrel was the standard for the early guns but I didn't realize how rare the 4" pre-war HDs were until I heard from Bill about mine. If I understood his message correctly, he figures maybe 80 or so were sold. I'm sure he'll correct this if I am mistaken. I don't know if anyone knows the distribution of blue/nickel but I would assume the number of nickel guns would be small and maybe none were in nickel originally. Mine was shipped in blue to the Ft. Smith, AR Police Department in 1940 and wears a humpback hammer (the tip of which was broken or ground off adding to the gun's misery).
Unfortunately, it was poorly refinished in nickel with the lettering badly buffed out. A shame a rare gun was ruined but I paid a shooter price for it and I enjoy it.
I had a photo of my shabby gun posted until I went and saw the fabulous example you are trying to trade. I didn't realize you already had one. I am not sure if you will find a gun equal to yours. You may have the best one that exists.
bmg60
Member
hi
i am not the best expert on the 38/44 heavy duty
pre war but will give what i know.
in roys eary book there is a reference about
the manufacture of 100 4 inch barrels.
so that number would most likely be the top number built.
my personal feelings are that there are less than that manufactured. But for my display I
use 100 is the estimate of how many produced.
as for the amount of nickels made the standard
mix used is between 10 percent and 20 percent.
nickel.
so the mix of all 4 inch is most likely
80 blue and 20 nickel.
jim fisher
just my best guess.
i am not the best expert on the 38/44 heavy duty
pre war but will give what i know.
in roys eary book there is a reference about
the manufacture of 100 4 inch barrels.
so that number would most likely be the top number built.
my personal feelings are that there are less than that manufactured. But for my display I
use 100 is the estimate of how many produced.
as for the amount of nickels made the standard
mix used is between 10 percent and 20 percent.
nickel.
so the mix of all 4 inch is most likely
80 blue and 20 nickel.
jim fisher
just my best guess.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
80 made? I think I made a big mistake! Many years ago I ran across a 5" barrel off a model 21. I bought the barrel thinking of a future project. About 10 years later I bought a 4" HD model 20 cheap in about 75%. I had the clyinder reamed to .44 special and the barrel installed. Still have the gun but sold the barrel about a year ago to somebody on this site.
bmg60
Member
hi
remember we are talking about pre war only
if your gun has a S before the serial number
there were a lot more 4 inch models made from 1946 thru 1966 after the war.
jim
remember we are talking about pre war only
if your gun has a S before the serial number
there were a lot more 4 inch models made from 1946 thru 1966 after the war.
jim
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Still waiting for Bill to pop in on this one. I recall he mentioned the 100 barrels were made to fill special orders before WWII. Pre-war HDs were 5" as standard and the 4" was a special order and as I recall the experts think maybe 80 were actually sold. After the war the 4" became common and the 5" less so.
Anyone who hasn't done it should go to Classifieds and see what 230grfmj is trying to trade. It's the most pristine HD I have ever seen and it's a pre-war with a 4" barrel. He wants to trade it for a nickel example in the same condition but I doubt that another pre-war 4" HD exists that is as nice as his.
Anyone who hasn't done it should go to Classifieds and see what 230grfmj is trying to trade. It's the most pristine HD I have ever seen and it's a pre-war with a 4" barrel. He wants to trade it for a nickel example in the same condition but I doubt that another pre-war 4" HD exists that is as nice as his.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Is he off somewhere?
Peter M. Eick
Member
I bought one of Bill's 4" pre-wars a while back and when we closed the deal we talked about them. At the time he stated the 100 of the barrels made and about 80 give or take sold if I remember correctly. I have been able to independently verify those numbers with other collector's so that is the accepted version.
If it is an original finish nickeled 4" that would be quite rare.
I am just please to have a pre-war 4" in my collection.
Here is my representative pre-war lengths.
If it is an original finish nickeled 4" that would be quite rare.
I am just please to have a pre-war 4" in my collection.
Here is my representative pre-war lengths.
Peter:
Nice selection !
I once owned a 6 1/2" pre-war HD very similar to yours that I traded it off to Bill for his collection. It had the same style front sight blade. Could you please post a photo of the front sight detail on your gun? If your are willing may I have the serial number of your gun (e-mail) for my files?
Jerry
Nice selection !
I once owned a 6 1/2" pre-war HD very similar to yours that I traded it off to Bill for his collection. It had the same style front sight blade. Could you please post a photo of the front sight detail on your gun? If your are willing may I have the serial number of your gun (e-mail) for my files?
Jerry
Peter and Jerry, those are some fine pre-war HD's. Thanks for sharing!
Peter M. Eick
Member
Jerry,
Look at the pins. I bet it is the exact same gun. When it was yours did you think it was a refinish? I agreed with Lyle that it was because the pins are flat and not rounded like my other HD's and OD's from the pre-war era.
For you John here are some other nice ones, but nothing compared to Bill's or Jerry's collection!
The top one is a converted HD to a target gun. Excellent target shooter, one of my favorite pre-war shooters.
The bottom is my oldest HD. It is from the first weeks production if I remember right.
This is now 5 38/44s out of date but it showed the trend. The only really unique one is on the top, that is the currently lowest known serial number HD. It has been in the hands of several collectors here on the forum and I am now the current steward of its care. Also at 4 o'clock is a nice transition HD that is in really nice shape. You have seen the rest in other pictures.
Look at the pins. I bet it is the exact same gun. When it was yours did you think it was a refinish? I agreed with Lyle that it was because the pins are flat and not rounded like my other HD's and OD's from the pre-war era.
For you John here are some other nice ones, but nothing compared to Bill's or Jerry's collection!
The top one is a converted HD to a target gun. Excellent target shooter, one of my favorite pre-war shooters.
The bottom is my oldest HD. It is from the first weeks production if I remember right.
This is now 5 38/44s out of date but it showed the trend. The only really unique one is on the top, that is the currently lowest known serial number HD. It has been in the hands of several collectors here on the forum and I am now the current steward of its care. Also at 4 o'clock is a nice transition HD that is in really nice shape. You have seen the rest in other pictures.
Peter:
It is the same gun ! I was kinda wishing it was a different one so we could compare the work on the front sights !
I have been able to trace the refinish work to a gunsmith here in southern California (Orange County).
Thank you for posting the photos of your family.
Jerry
It is the same gun ! I was kinda wishing it was a different one so we could compare the work on the front sights !
I have been able to trace the refinish work to a gunsmith here in southern California (Orange County).
Thank you for posting the photos of your family.
Jerry
handejector
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Jim referred to this Engineering Order:
January 14, 1935: Order to forge and machine 100 4" .38/44 barrels to be furnished on order per H. Wesson [Bold type added]
I, too, doubt that ALL were used before the War.
January 14, 1935: Order to forge and machine 100 4" .38/44 barrels to be furnished on order per H. Wesson [Bold type added]
I, too, doubt that ALL were used before the War.
Peter,
The 6½" you have shown here is certainly a beautiful gun, that anyone would be proud to own.
Peter,
I'm sorry to hear that you seem to have purchased a gun not knowing it was refinished and that was only determined later. Lyle is certainly a good judge of the authenticity of a guns finish, and now that GLL has stated he knew it had been redone, it's sad to learn that somehow that information seemed to get lost somewhere along the line.
Regardless, you have a very nice gun and certainly some other very fine Heavy Dutys shown in the picture below as well as the others you posted. Congratulations on a fine collection.
The 6½" you have shown here is certainly a beautiful gun, that anyone would be proud to own.
Peter,
I'm sorry to hear that you seem to have purchased a gun not knowing it was refinished and that was only determined later. Lyle is certainly a good judge of the authenticity of a guns finish, and now that GLL has stated he knew it had been redone, it's sad to learn that somehow that information seemed to get lost somewhere along the line.
Regardless, you have a very nice gun and certainly some other very fine Heavy Dutys shown in the picture below as well as the others you posted. Congratulations on a fine collection.
BruceHMX
Member
Peter after a few years of collecting many 38/44's I congratulate you on your collection.
I have lusted over that 5 inch target model since you posted it.
The best thing is you shoot them.
Enjoy!!
I have lusted over that 5 inch target model since you posted it.
The best thing is you shoot them.
Enjoy!!
Peter:
I have to agree with Bruce about the 5".
Could you pull that one out sometime and post a "bunch" of photos of just that gun?
Jerry
I have to agree with Bruce about the 5".
Could you pull that one out sometime and post a "bunch" of photos of just that gun?
Jerry
Peter M. Eick
Member
230FMJ and anyone else reading the thread,
When I bought the 6.5" the seller spent over 30 minutes with myself and my boss who was at the gun show going over with us why he thought the gun was refinished. I was extremely impressed that the seller not only disclosed this before hand in emails and he went to great effort to show us on the gun why he believed it to be a refinish.
There was no misunderstanding on my part, I knew before I even agreed to look at the deal it was a refinished gun in my mind.
The real question has always been, with a gun of this quality of refinish, could it have been considered to be factory original finish? That was the context of my comments about the finish.
If it were me alone at the time I bought it I would have assumed it was a factory finish given the quality and not noticing the subtle nature of the pins being flat and not rounded.
In the end, the seller was very gratious and took far more time then I deserved to educate me and make me a better S&W collector by teaching me about how to tell it was a refinished gun.
In all of my dealings with other collectors, only my SWCA sponsor has been more giving with his time to help out a fellow collector. As we know there are some collector's/dealer's that would use a novice like me for their own personal advantage and unfortunately I have dealt with that end of the spectrum also.
So, in the end, I knew it was refinished, the seller disclosed it repeatedly and I am very happy to own the gun today!
When I bought the 6.5" the seller spent over 30 minutes with myself and my boss who was at the gun show going over with us why he thought the gun was refinished. I was extremely impressed that the seller not only disclosed this before hand in emails and he went to great effort to show us on the gun why he believed it to be a refinish.
There was no misunderstanding on my part, I knew before I even agreed to look at the deal it was a refinished gun in my mind.
The real question has always been, with a gun of this quality of refinish, could it have been considered to be factory original finish? That was the context of my comments about the finish.
If it were me alone at the time I bought it I would have assumed it was a factory finish given the quality and not noticing the subtle nature of the pins being flat and not rounded.
In the end, the seller was very gratious and took far more time then I deserved to educate me and make me a better S&W collector by teaching me about how to tell it was a refinished gun.
In all of my dealings with other collectors, only my SWCA sponsor has been more giving with his time to help out a fellow collector. As we know there are some collector's/dealer's that would use a novice like me for their own personal advantage and unfortunately I have dealt with that end of the spectrum also.
So, in the end, I knew it was refinished, the seller disclosed it repeatedly and I am very happy to own the gun today!
Peter M. Eick
Member
Oh yeah. I will pull the 5" target and do a summary set of photos on it. Since it is wet this weekend I will try and do it soon.
Also it has been a fine 38/44 week. I picked up two more pre-war 38/44's just since wednesday. What a great week and there may be more in the pike!
Also it has been a fine 38/44 week. I picked up two more pre-war 38/44's just since wednesday. What a great week and there may be more in the pike!
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