Questioning Why the Colt .38 Super

[rhmc24]

I've often wondered why the Colt .38 Super in the first place, considering hazard when used in the many thousands of their 1900s, 1902s & 1903Hs out in public hands.

Need to perforate car bodies might have been met by a bottle-neck .45ACP to .38 or .40 ACP.

Colt was very adept at hybrid gun re-configuring the 1900s .38 Smokeless series with minimal 1911 change to become the 1905 .45 cal -- so why not just a barrel & mag design change to get more velocity it needed in the hundred-Ks of 1911 WW1 survivors out there.

My suspicion is that Colt Marketing deliberately obsoleted the .38 auto by its same cartridge on steroids, the now dangerous .38 Super wih physical intrchangeability. Same Marketing suspicion Colt avoided the change of cartridge, barrel & mag, a simple conversion of the 1000s of WWI bring-backs that would stymie the sale of 1911s renamed .38 Super.

All this in the 1930s mindset of very few people interested in or equipped for DIY as exists today, recaling a 1930s gunsmith's thrill finally getting a lathe -- even though it was a foot treadle powered one from the 1860s that only turned, no threading ----->

 

[Bullet Bob]

There used to be an excellent website devoted to the .38 Super that has recently closed down. It had articles about loading, performance, and history by a gentleman who had done very scholarly research, with citations regarding his statements, instead of just repeating what gunwriters had repeated (and still do) among themselves. He included original Colt and ammunition companies advertising, American Rifleman reports, etc. You can still get a pretty good picture by reading the Wikipedia entries for both .38 ACP and Super.

In short, there was no velocity difference between the original .38 ACP and what became known as the .38 Super. When Colt first developed the "Super .38" 1911 the cartridge was still known as the .38 ACP for the first couple of years. As with anything humans do. the changes back and forth warrant a whole article; I really wish that website hadn't disappeared.

 

[29aholic]

There is also the fact that civilians in other countries can not own a firearm chambered in a military caliber. 1911 38 Supers were/are very popular in Mexico

 

[DWalt]

The best information is that until 1927, Colt offered two models (the Military Model 1902 and the Pocket Model 1903) in in .38 ACP. At that time Colt felt that these two elderly designs could not be justified to remain in production (sales were very slow at that time) as the M1911 could easily be adapted to fire the .38 ACP, or as Colt called it the ".38 Rimless and Smokeless" cartridge. It was recognized that the M1911 was a much stronger design, fully capable of handling a higher performance cartridge than the two "parallel ruler" design pistols so Colt took the steps to develop one for the M1911, which they called the Colt "Super .38" Automatic Pistol, first released in January 1929. Its MV was given as 1300 ft/sec. Both the Military Model and the Pocket Model in .38 ACP were discontinued in 1927. The M1911 in .38 Super (or Super .38) proved to be popular among law enforcement agencies because of its ability to penetrate car bodies. The real mystery is why Colt kept the M1902 and M1903 pistols in its lineup as long as it did and did not modify the M1911 for .38 much earlier, as it could have easily done.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

There is also the fact that civilians in other countries can not own a firearm chambered in a military caliber. 1911 38 Supers were/are very popular in Mexico

Ooooo.....I was gonna say that!!!!

 

[hkcavalier]

There is also the fact that civilians in other countries can not own a firearm chambered in a military caliber. 1911 38 Supers were/are very popular in Mexico

If not for those laws, the .38 Super would have slipped away into obsolescence. IPSC resurrected it here in the U.S. with those power factor rules in the '80s. Let's be honest, if it was terrific it would have found room at the popular kids' table along with the 9x19, .45ACP, and .357 Magnum.

 

[ContinentalOp]

There is also the fact that civilians in other countries can not own a firearm chambered in a military caliber. 1911 38 Supers were/are very popular in Mexico

Some years ago Colt put out a 1911 called "El Presidente." IIRC, it was a high-polished stainless steel Government Model in .38 Super, with mother-of-pearl grips, and was made, again IIRC, to recognize the popularity of that caliber in Mexico.

 

[colt_saa]

I do not think there is any argument that the 38ACP ammunition of the era was anemic

Personally I see little hazard if you obey the rules. If you own a 38ACP firearm, feed it 38ACP ammo.

I do not pump gasoline into my Diesel Sprinter and I never put diesel fuel in my SUV.

Or are you saying the designer of something needs to guard against user stupidity?


You could obviously make the same argument against the 9x23 Winchester.

After all, externally, it is almost a dimensional copy of the 38ACP/38Super but operating almost 20,000 PSI higher. It will go in the same magazines and chamber in the same firearms

Or the 45ACP/45SUPER relationship

 

[colt_saa]

Some years ago Colt put out a 1911 called "El Presidente." IIRC, it was a high-polished stainless steel Government Model in .38 Super, with mother-of-pearl grips, and was made, again IIRC, to recognize the popularity of that caliber in Mexico.

The EL Presidente and all the rest of the EL ?????? series were Lew Horton Exclusives from Colt

There were probably 2 dozen different variations in the EL series

I think I have an EL Jefe some where and I know I have an EL Guapo slide in my workbench

 

[rhmc24]

I do appreciate the interests in this post with s bit of new info & much maybe of interest to Colt pre-1911 neophytes. I am probably more up-to-speed on the Colt pre-1911s as anybody. I have done extensive work all the types pictured below --


Of all these I have done simple & major repairs & alteration & assembled 1902s & 1905s from parts I collected --

I'm disappointed ,the aforementioned replies, quite a lot was mentioned about foreign popularity of the .38 Super while my notion of .45-38 or .45-40 was ignored -- likewise Colt Marketing questions.

 

[Bullet Bob]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad it's here; the .38 Super is my favorite semiauto cartridge. The only one I currently have is my Wilson Combat Classic:

 

[crsides]

I've often wondered why the Colt .38 Super in the first place, -->

Because it is so cool.

Charlie

 

[kwill1911]

I'm not sure why the cartridge's popularity in Mexico comes up in reference to the history or development of the .38 Super. I find no evidence that a Mexican market influenced Colt at all. Julian Hatcher and others bemoaned the fact that there was not a modern pistol (as defined in the early 1920s) shooting the .38 ACP. Colt saw that with minor tweaking they could offer the Model O (1911 platform) in that chambering and not have to invest in new capital equipment to build it. They could then phase out the old pistols/machinery. After it was on the market the Mexicans discovered it.

Also, in the interest of completeness I'll copy what I posted on the Colt Forum:

Colt had little to do with the development of the so-called .38 Super ammo. There is a lot of confusion about this but when they announced the new Super .38 pistol in 1928 and starting shipping in 1929 there was no mention of a new cartridge or higher velocity ammo to go with it. The pistol shot the same .38 ACP ammo as the prior designs. The original spec for that ammo (from 1900) called for a velocity of 1260 FPS from a 6" barrel. Most loadings fell in the range of 1160 to 1280 and Colt's ad for the pistol at the time listed the velocity at 1190 FPS. In late 1932, when Remington introduced their new line of high speed oil proof cartridges they pushed velocity up to 1300 FPS and other ammo companies followed suit. It eventually became apparent that this load was too much for the earlier pistols and the ammo manufacturers began labeling their boxes appropriately. They also loaded .38 Super in nickel plated cases while the old .38 ACP used unplated brass. Colt finally took a position in 1944 that the higher velocity cartridges should be used only in the new Super .38 pistol.

All of this is documented in Sheldon's excellent book, Colt's Super .38. There used to be an excellent website with even more detail and history about the development of the .38 ACP and .38 Super cartridges but it has gone dormant.

 

[kraynky]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad it's here; the .38 Super is my favorite semiauto cartridge. The only one I currently have is my Wilson Combat Classic:

About time we got a picture of one in this thread. Mine is an oddity, that my dad bought from his BIL, my favorite Uncle. I acquired it after Dad passed away in '89, and although it functioned just fine, it was pretty ugly to me (at the time). Nowaday I'm almost wishing I had left it alone, but I was just starting into 1911's, and honestly, it needed work anyway.

My local gunsmith at the time was very knowledgeable about all things 1911. Best he could figure was it might have been a Officers toy, perhaps even his competition gun. (this was his guess, which was way more than I knew or could guess) According to him the slide was quite a bit newer than the 1948 frame, and it had a match grade barrel and other components in it already.

I asked him how it would affect the value if I had it refinished, and he said, "Heck, it's a parts gun already.", so off to the races we went.

It always shot better than I could when I was growing up. And I know that because both my Mom AND Dad shot better than I did with it. And I'd bet Mom could still shoot it good, and she's 80!

All that rambling to say this, I have one, I love it and I wish I had a smaller version of it, maybe a hi-capacity along the lines of my 6094 or something. This is the gun that got me into reloading back then, because ammo was so hard to find, and expensive. (both are still true today locally)

I also wish I had bought one of the El 1911's when my local shop had 2 or 3 of them,....... at $600 bucks! But I thought they were a bit "pimpy". I really enjoy my Super 38!

The buffalo horn grips replaced the faux black pearl Jay Scotts.

 

[DWalt]

"After all, externally, it (referring to the 9x23mm Winchester) is almost a dimensional copy of the 38ACP/38Super but operating almost 20,000 PSI higher. It will go in the same magazines and chamber in the same firearms."

The 9x23mm Win is a true rimless cartridge, while the .38 Super has a semi-rim. The external dimensions are different in minor ways from the .38 Super as the 9x23mm case has a slight taper. Internally, the 9x23mm case has a higher inside base and will withstand considerably higher chamber pressures than will the .38 Super case, especially in the M1911-style Colt chamber which does not completely support the cartridge base. It absolutely requires the use of a SR primer, never a SP. Nonetheless, the 9x23mm Win cartridge seems to work fine in any M1911-type semiautomatic pistol chambered in .38 Super without modifications, aside from requiring a heavier recoil spring. I also fire 9x23mm Win in my EAA Witness in .38 Super. It is no trick to handload the 9x23mm Win using a 124 grain jacketed 9mm bullet to reach a MV of 1500 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. But I am personally more comfortable keeping the MV in the 1400-1450 ft/sec level or less. I have found that AA#5 is the best propellant for the 9x23mm Win.

There are probably very few who have experimented with the 9x23mm Win to the extent that I have. In fact I even worked closely with Winchester back in the 2005-07 period to develop and evaluate it for use as a possible military round. But that is another story for another time.

"I'm disappointed ,the aforementioned replies, quite a lot was mentioned about foreign popularity of the .38 Super while my notion of .45-38 or .45-40 was ignored"

I suppose that not many prior to the early 1960s gave much thought to necking down the .45 ACP case, as there is little benefit to doing so. There were some non-commercial wildcat loads made by necking down the .45 ACP cases to .38 caliber (the .38/.45 Clerke), and somewhat later the .400 Cor-Bon came along, which was the .45 ACP case necked down to 10mm. Neither approach found great commercial popularity or success. I have also experimented with the .400 Cor-Bon, but never fell in love with it. Its greatest benefit is that only a barrel swap is required to convert any M1911-style .45 pistol to .400 Cor-Bon. If anyone wants a hot 10mm autopistol, then using the factory 10mm round is a better choice (but that caliber never found much success in the marketplace either). Colt also flirted with a 9.8mm round for the M1911 for possible military sale long ago, but the idea never reached fruition.

 

[rhmc24]

More info for ahyone interested ---

Colt 1902, 1905 & 1903 Hammer Parts Interchange

I dredged this up from my old files, my experience & may be of interest to some members --- It is a deja-vu from some where before but totall factual in my experience exept as noted --

PARTS INTERCHANGE - Colt 1905 45ACP & 1902/03 38ACP Autos

A simple guide is that parts with dimensions related to caliber; barrel, grip size, trigger, magazine, do not interchange** between the .45ACP cal and the .38ACPs.

With 1902/03 38ACP all internal parts interchange except as noted.

Mainspring, Hammer, Tri-spring, Recoil spring, Sear, Firing pin - all interchange with '05.

Slide Stop fits interchangeably but the 1902 part in the 1905 pistol requires the magazine tab to be bent up a little to engage properly.

Magazine Catch - Interchanges with 1905 & '02 Military. '02 Sporting and '03 use shorter, due same shorter magazine. The difference is only in length of the access which can be cut or lengthened to fit.

1905 trigger, extractor, ejector, do not interchange with 1902/03.

Recoil springs (including 1911) will fit can be installed but probably not of proper weight.

Ejector, '02-‘03 can be installed in '05 with minor modification (not verified as to firing function).

Trigger - 1911 or a '02/03 trigger can be modified to work on the 1905. Not easy but possible.

Takedown buttons differ in length. Basic design is the same but different lengths for each of the 1905, 1902 and 1903 - early and later 1903s differ. Same applies to recoil spring guide.

General Info rather than for interchange, frame width, externally, is the same on both '02/03 and '05. Slide to frame rails fit '02/3 and '05. 1905 slide outside width is about .025 wider than '02/03. A 1905 slide will run on a 1902/03 frame & vice versa

**Disconnector - '02 disconnector works intermittently on '05 but is a bit too long, could easily be modified. The '05 disconnector will be a bit too short, might work but probably unreliably. More investigation needed on this item.

General Notes:
Accuracy of internal machine work, location of holes, etc. on these pistols is of highest order. This allows for the high degree of interchangeability of parts.

Parts for the 1902/03s can usually be found, not quickly but not impossible. 1905 parts are almost non-existent; consequently the inclusion of modification info.

A 1905 I brought back to life --

 

[robertrwalsh]

IMHO the .38 super is a niche gun, but it is not a small niche. It hits harder than a 9mm, shoots softer and carries more rounds than a .45acp. I currently carry a Kmber Ultra Aegis in .38 super much of the time and like it very much.

 

[hkcavalier]

I'm not sure why the cartridge's popularity in Mexico comes up in reference to the history or development of the .38 Super.

Development, not at all. As has been noted elsewhere, the cartridge never really took off and what "kept it alive" was use in Latin America (owing to separate but similar national laws against civilian firearms in military chamberings) and later in competitive use here in the States.

Are you stating that the common conception of the development, that it was almost purely intended for law enforcement use to give cops a handgun that could penetrate the body armor and car bodies of the era, is incorrect? I struggle to believe that Colt just up and started making 1911s in .38ACP/Super with no pent-up demand.

 

[DWalt]

The M1905 Colt was not designed for the later M1911 .45 cartridge. Rather it used a cartridge having a lighter 200 grain bullet at a lower chamber pressure (cataloged as the .45 Colt's Automatic). While post-1911 .45 ACP ammunition can be used in the M1905, sooner or later it will result in cracking of the slide around the barrel wedge at the front of the slide. Use of .38 Super ammunition in the Colt M1902 and M1903 pistols can result in the same slide failure. There is no good way to repair it. I have seen many M1902/03/05 pistols with such slide cracks. I once owned a M1903 in fairly high condition, and I handloaded only lead bullet .38 ACP loads just powerful enough to function its action reliably.

I believe that the development of the .357 Magnum cartridge and revolver for LE use by S&W was a direct competitive challenge to Colt's .38 Super pistol for the LE market, and most certainly negatively affected the future market popularity of the Colt .38 Super. Remember that there were also numerous powerful 9mm cartridges similar to the .38 Super in existence prior to its development. such as the 9mm Steyr , the 9mm Mauser Export, and the 9mm Bergman-Bayard (9mm Largo). And several other 9mm cartridges most have never heard of.

 

[kwill1911]

Are you stating that the common conception of the development, that it was almost purely intended for law enforcement use to give cops a handgun that could penetrate the body armor and car bodies of the era, is incorrect?

Yes, that is incorrect. Colt advertising and promotional material in 1929 and the early 1930s promoted it for big game hunting and target shooting and never mentions law enforcement at all. The copy usually said "The Ideal "One-hand-gun" for Big Game. Will stop any animal on the American Continent. This new Colt is brought out to meet the demand of the Target Shooter and Big-Game Hunter to handle the powerful .38-caliber Automatic Cartridge."