Range report

[ghoffman]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones... I ran 200 rounds through my Shield today and I think me and the gun are growing up. I am comfortable enough to stop babying the gun and it is old enough to run perfectly and shoot better than ever. I make some adjustments with my support hand, dropped my elbow and increased the squeeze and I'm not thereyet, but I know when I have a goo, or a bad, shot. Those of you who keep asking if you should buy a Shield - Enough already - just go buy the darn thing - get 1000 rounds behind you and you will have a great gun. Period.

 

[CattleDog73]

When I first picked mine up I had some doubts. The slide is heavy, the mags were stiff, and the trigger was ugly. Plus, I wasn't sure I'd ever be comfortable with the Shield's smaller form as I typically shoot full sized handguns.

That was 600 flawless rounds ago, though. I actually quite enjoy it now! I've adapted to the heavy slide and size, and the trigger is much better, the mags are easier on the thumbs, and it's good fun at the range. I find myself splitting range time now between this and my HK VP9.

 

[Rastoff]

I believe there is a correlation between handgun malfunction and shooter experience. An experienced shooter, who has the proper technique and training, is far less likely to have a malfunction than an inexperienced shooter or one who isn't using proper technique.

I've had the opportunity to see several hundred shooters of various skill levels and gun types. By far the most malfunction prone combination is a new female shooter with a Glock 26 or 27. This combination seems to be a type II or III malfunction paradise. Take that same woman and put a full size 1911 in her hand and the malfunctions vanish. Hmmm, that's weird.

The Shield is also a very small gun like the G26 or G27. It seems to be less malfunction prone, even with a new shooter, but still has malfunctions. I've personally taken a Shield that someone was having a lot of malfunctions with, fired it myself and had no issues. I believe this is based solely on experience. Because I have a lot more experience, I naturally hold the gun in a way that allows it to function more optimally.

I also believe that everyone can have the same experience. It's mostly about grip. The issues with the recoil spring being tough are mostly technique. Once the proper technique is learned, the spring seems lighter.

 

[Bob O]

Nice shooting!!

 

[ghoffman]

Thanks Bob O, I'm getting there.

 

[JMichaelTX]

I believe there is a correlation between handgun malfunction and shooter experience. An experienced shooter, who has the proper technique and training, is far less likely to have a malfunction than an inexperienced shooter or one who isn't using proper technique..
. . .
I've personally taken a Shield that someone was having a lot of malfunctions with, fired it myself and had no issues.

Please explain how the manner in which a gun is held can affect the internal workings of the gun. No doubt the aim/accuracy of the shooter is affected, but it is not at all obvious to me why the gun would malfunction.

 

[ghoffman]

I believe there is a correlation between handgun malfunction and shooter experience. An experienced shooter, who has the proper technique and training, is far less likely to have a malfunction than an inexperienced shooter or one who isn't using proper technique.

I agree - I just let the slide fly now, I used to be worried about it and the gun would barely make register, or I would actually have to give it a shove! I also notice that the looser I hold the gun, the more likely it is to stovepipe. I don't even think about this anymore. My Shield has taught me a lot!

 

[Bob O]

Please explain how the manner in which a gun is held can affect the internal workings of the gun. No doubt the aim/accuracy of the shooter is affected, but it is not at all obvious to me why the gun would malfunction.

Limp wristing and/or holding the grip too low can result in malfunctions.

 

[Rastoff]

Please explain how the manner in which a gun is held can affect the internal workings of the gun.

It's an excellent question and I will try to answer it.

As Bob O pointed out, there is the phenomena of "limp wristing" the gun. This is not necessarily as straight forward as it might seem by the term. There are a few things going on.

All semi-auto pistols are designed to work with the recoil produced by firing the cartridge. There is a delicate balance between recoil spring strength, mass of the slide and the power of the load used. As the mass of the slide is reduced, i.e. the Shield, the power of the recoil spring must be increased. This is why small pistols are difficult to operate; strong springs.

If the motion of the slide is retarded, the ability of the slide to eject the spent round and chamber the next is reduced. Retard that motion enough and you have a Type II malfunction (stove pipe) or failure to feed. This reduction in slide performance can be caused by several factors, one of which is the shooter.

The proper grip will provide a relatively solid resistance to the rearward motion (recoil) of the gun under fire. Cushion that motion with a loose grip and it's possible for the shooter to induce a malfunction. I've seen it many times. Strengthen the grip and the problem goes away. Give them a different gun, with different operating characteristics, and the problem goes away.

The problem with changing guns is the shooter will often then blame the first gun. They'll say, "That gun did..." when in fact it was the shooter that caused it.

There are some guns that are more prone to shooting induced malfunctions than others. It has been my observation that the full size models of most handguns have far lower propensity to malfunction. This is likely due to the mass of the slide.

 

[ghoffman]

JMichael, I know from doing it that the ejection process will fail if I don't grip the gun tight enough. I think the energy needed to operate the slide goes into throwing the gun around instead of through the casing. I went threw an afternoon when I was letting the gun jump up like in the movies where they slowly bring the game down to the target then let it fly up again with each shot. NOT RECOMMENDED!!

 

[JMichaelTX]

. . .
If the motion of the slide is retarded, the ability of the slide to eject the spent round and chamber the next is reduced. Retard that motion enough and you have a Type II malfunction (stove pipe) or failure to feed. This reduction in slide performance can be caused by several factors, one of which is the shooter.

The proper grip will provide a relatively solid resistance to the rearward motion (recoil) of the gun under fire. Cushion that motion with a loose grip and it's possible for the shooter to induce a malfunction. I've seen it many times. Strengthen the grip and the problem goes away. .

If this is true, it gives me great concern about the ability of the gun to perform in a real-world, real-life situation.

What happens if the shooter:

1. is unable to use a two-handed grip,
2. can only use his/her weak hand (one-handed shot)
3. has his/her hand damaged in some way during the fire fight.
4. is in a situation where a strong grip is unlikely or not possible?

I want a robust pistol that does not malfunction if I don't hold it just right.

To be honest, unless the shooter in some way physically obstructs the recoiling slide, it would seem to me that the recoil spring is providing far more resistance than what a firm grip can offer. I would hope that reputable manufacturers like S&W would design a robust gun that does not malfunction just because the grip is weak. After all, guns like the M&P Shield are designed to be used by a wide range of people, including women who may not have as strong a grip as men. [no disrespect to women intended. I'm sure there are some women with stronger grips than some men].

Although I have seen a few issues reported concerning the M&P Shield (like failure of the RSA), I have not seen any reports of malfunctions like "stove pipe".

 

[JMichaelTX]

JMichael, I know from doing it that the ejection process will fail if I don't grip the gun tight enough.

OK, I will test this with my Shield next time I'm at the range.

 

[ghoffman]

JMichael, take a look at this slow motion video of a guy single handing a Glock and creating a failure to feed the new round. Glock Limp Wrist Failure in Slow Motion - YouTube. I'm a bit uncomfortable here because I've only been shooting for about 3 months and I'm way in over my head with this crowd!

 

[Rastoff]

If this is true, it gives me great concern about the ability of the gun to perform in a real-world, real-life situation.

(My snip for brevity.)

Sir, I couldn't agree more. This is why I recommend that people get the gun that has the least likelihood for this type of malfunction. Which is why I'm not a fan of small semi-auto pistols. You'll see 10 times the number of malfunctions on small pistols vs standard size or large frame pistols.

There is a reason I carry a 1911 or a full size M&P 45.

That said, it is my opinion that the Shield is one of the best small guns on the market. It is not just a cut down version of the full size M&P, but a gun design complete unto itself. Yes, it uses the same trigger mechanism as the other M&Ps, but the frame, barrel and slide were designed just for the Shield.

 

[Rastoff]

Here is the video ( or one just like it) that ghoffman was mentioning:



There is another aspect I should point out. The "limp wristing" phenomena is not just holding the gun lightly. On some guns it could only happen when the gun has just enough cushion from the shooter. In other words, if the gun has no support, like firing it while it's just sitting on a table, it might function fine. Then firing it with a proper grip, it fires fine. Then firing it with about a 40% less stable grip it will malfunction.

Nothing is set in stone here. This is a phenomena that is not fully understood. It works in combination with the grip, recoil spring and load. Change any of those and the whole dynamic changes. It could get worse or better depending on a thousand other variables related to the gun build.


I've been telling people for years that Glocks are prone to this. I've seen it with my own eyes. Still, some will tell you that I'm full of it and making this up. Alas, I claim no special expertise in this area. I'm just reporting what I've seen and what makes sense to me based on the function of the gun.

 

[pushpullpete]

I want a robust pistol that does not malfunction if I don't hold it just right.

JMichael, I am not trying to sound like an a** but, originally the term 'gun control' did not mean government intervention. Quite possibly there are some who need a 'robust pistol' that should consider a 686 plus, a 627 or any number of revolvers.

 

[McE]

If you don't believe that limp wristing is a real thing because it doesn't jive with your understanding of physics, get yourself some time behind a teeny tiny 380acp or a less teeny tiny Desert Eagle.

I think the easiest way to imagine the limp wristing problem is to imagine a slo-mo extraction/ejection process. When a round is fired, the slide is forced backward with minimal contact with the frame of the gun. The tilting barrel/lug locking/unlocking isn't too important to discuss here. The frame of the gun initially remains stationary due to inertia (as a body at rest) and being gripped. It is this offset between the moving slide which has grabbed the empty casing, and the somewhat stationary frame which has the ejector, that works to fling the casing out of the gun. Tiny guns don't have much resting mass/energy/inertia whatever the term is, my high school physics is fuzzy, so most of the force involved in keeping the frame from following the slide's movement vector is provided by the shooter's grip.
If there isn't much force to hold the frame in place as the slide tries to shove the casing against the ejector to eject the round, the frame follows the slide rearward as a result of the barrel locking into the frame as a function of most tilting barrel designs.
The slide and casing are chasing an ejector that is moving in the same direction. This is what gives you a stovepipe- there isn't enough force to fling out that empty casing. The contact between the casing and the ejector is softened. It's like trying to clap when both of your hands are moving in the same direction. It's like bouncing a ball off of a parked car versus bouncing a ball off of a car driving away from you. Firm grip = parked car, weak grip = car's moving away.

If it's a real enough concern for you, then rest assured that there's no way to limp wrist a revolver.

 

[ghoffman]

What bothers me is that I never even thought of the defense implications of this! I was thinking about shooting - If someone's first shot hit my right wrist I would be totally SOL. Even if I had enough adrenaline going on to fire a shot, I'd never clear the gun. Damn but there is a lot to think about!

 

[JMichaelTX]

Here is the video ( or one just like it) that ghoffman was mentioning:
. . .

There is another aspect I should point out. The "limp wristing" phenomena is not just holding the gun lightly.
. . .

Nothing is set in stone here. This is a phenomena that is not fully understood. .

@Rastoff: Thanks for your patience, explanations, and sharing that video. That is truly amazing. I'm convinced!
Thanks for not jumping on me just because I was skeptical at first. There is so much BS posted on the Internet that it is often hard to know what's fact, and what's BS.

I will definitely have to test my Shield to find out if/when it will exhibit this terrible behavior.

BTW, this thread is the first time I have ever heard of this behavior. This is so important, that it seems like every gun should come with a bright red notice for the user that improper grip may result in a malfunction.

I'm not trying to blame manufacturers, just thinking about how to make everyone aware of this. Ideas?

 

[Rastoff]

What happens if the shooter:

1. is unable to use a two-handed grip,
2. can only use his/her weak hand (one-handed shot)
3. has his/her hand damaged in some way during the fire fight.
4. is in a situation where a strong grip is unlikely or not possible?

I should have addressed these earlier.

A proper grip does not mean there has to be two hands involved.
A proper grip can be had with the support hand.

This is why I'm a proponent of practicing with the support hand. An injured shooting hand is not necessarily common, but it does happen. A more common reality would be to have the shooting hand occupied with some other task like holding the bad guy at bay.

I don't think you have to become an expert with both hands. Still, you should at least become familiar with shooting with the support hand. Whenever you go to the range, save at least one magazine for the support hand.

I can't imagine a situation where you would want to shoot and couldn't get a reasonable grip. Even so, it's a good idea to practice with some different positions. Shooting from different levels, i.e. kneeling, prone or using a barricade (shooting and support side) is a good idea too. Not only will this make you more proficient, but it will evaluate your gun. How else will you discover if your gun will hold up to use in the real world?

Shooting on a square range is great, but it's not realistic. Mix things up. It will make you better prepared for what may come.