Re-Bluing a Vintage Smith & Wesson?

LongColt45

LongColt45

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Part of the mystique surrounding vintage Smith and Wesson revolvers by collectors in this country appears to be the quality of their blued finish. My own personal definition of vintage, which may not have a consensus here, is prior to circa 1958 when S&W started using model numbers instead of names and began instituting their design and engineering changes often for economic reasons. Having just received the excellent 4th edition of the SCSW, I found no definition of "vintage" so I decide to make up my own.

Having previously wondered about Smith's bluing process, I researched this online. The best information came from this forum (no surprise there), although it took quite a while to assemble a cohesive picture from the many threads and posts.

Below is a synopsis of what I found. Please note that I cannot vouch for the veracity of this data, which I am sure many of you either know by heart, or have differing views as to the details.

  1. During this "vintage era", their premium revolvers were highly polished by skilled craftsmen and all parts of each individual gun were blued together using Smith's proprietary Carbonia oil / bone charcoal mixture in a gas furnace. After cooling the blued parts were immersed in whale oil, probably sperm whale oil (a modern day ethical violation?).
  2. The Carbonia oil was a proprietary mixture of a pine-tar-like oil provided by the American Gas Furnace Company along with other ingredients, the formula for which is now lost to posterity. The heating temperatures and durations are also not precisely known.
  3. All parts of given revolver were blued together at the same time.
  4. This method produced an exceptional and consistent finish.
  5. S&W made their own huge polishing wheels out of walrus hide and wood (imaging the outcry if that practice was pursued today).
  6. After 1958, parts were (over time) polished less highly and the parts of the guns were blued separately: the frames in one batch, another batch for the cylinders, barrels in a separate batch, etc.). Consistency of the blue using this approach was not quite optimal.
  7. The excellent Carbonia bluing process was abandoned in 1978.

All this is a preamble to The Real Question: When, if ever, should a vintage S&W revolver be refinished? Some folks consider such a notion total anathema, never to be contemplated. Others are of the opinion that if the piece is a real beater of little relative value, then little is lost (either monetarily or historically) by re-bluing the gun in as period correct a manner as possible.

Incidetally, S&W told me over the phone last week that they will no longer re-finish any firearm manufactured prior to 1960. The reason given was, to paraphrase, "because of the unavailability of replacement parts and changes to 'manufacturing processes'".

My dilemma is with a revolver which lies somewhere in the middle. It is my newly acquired 1957 Pre-Model 29 .44 Magnum: CLICK HERE FOR THIS RECENT THREAD. The polish of the metal is mostly really good, with some bluing wear at the muzzle and on the cylinder, and there are no dings or significant scratches. However, the bluing has a few blemishes to the color and there are a couple of tiny rust spots hidden under the stocks. This is a $1100 gun.

My initial feeling is that I should simply mitigate the hidden rust with careful application of extra fine 0000 steel wool and light machine oil, then thoroughly but gently clean the blued surfaces and perhaps apply Renaissance wax. However, am open to all opinions on what you guys believe is the best way to proceed.

Thanks much,
Charlie
 
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Almost everyone on this forum will tell you to leave it as is ,and for good reason.However if bringing back the gun to perfect condition finish wise will make you cherish this gun even more, then you should do so.At this point you should send it off to Ford's refinishing in Fl.
 
I've had a couple guns reblued and otherwise "refinished" over the years. Have never been satisfied with the results and have generally been sorry that I had it done. Never sent one to Ford's though, so maybe that would have a different (although costlier) result. I too have a pre 29 with a little blue wear but there's no way it is going out for a reblue. Good luck.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
 
I wouldn't consider it unless the blueing is less than 25%. A cheap refinish will make the gun worth less. An expensive refinish might bring the value of the gun up a little but the money you spent on the refinish will basically be wasted if viewed as an investment.
 
The refinish or no refinish debate has been discussed here ad nauseam.

The bottom line is that it is your gun and therefore your choice. If you are looking for help to make your decision I would offer the following.

If you are doing it for yourself and cost is not an issue then there is no decision to make.

If you are doing it with hopes that the guns value will increase with a new paint job, then there are 2 answers.

Purist collectors won't touch the gun in most instances.

Shooters and non purist collectors won't mind or will maybe only take a small deduction for the refinish.

So basically that is it.


As for steel wool, NEVER use it on a gun. It is too harsh and steel rusts. When steel wool is used it tends to leave small particles behind and little particles of rusting steel are not what you want on your blue finish. I don't even like brass or copper wool unless the rust is very thick.

Try a rag with oil and rub the rust flecks gently. A finger nail works well with oil also. Remember that bluing finish on a gun is a form of rusting and is only skin deep. This is why a leather holster is able to remove the bluing from the tip of the barrel.

Over rubbing of any manner will remove the bluing. So good luck and make sure to post before and after photos. We all love gun porn. :D
 
I would recommend in your endeavor to remove the minor rust to use bronze wool as opposed to steel wool. It takes additional effort but is less aggressive. I have ordered it from Amazon. com in the past, but there are probably other sources.
 
The days are long gone where S&W would "refurbish" (meaning restore to "as new" condition) which ceased sometime in the 1970s as far as I could trace. Even in the 1970's S&W's in house work on older guns started to get sloppy, likely because of the WWII Craftsmen, retiring out, which is my opinion alone with no supporting facts other than my 30 years of collecting old S&W's.

Shortly after S&W stopped repairing and / or refurbishing older guns they excllusively referred Dave Chicoine, who (unfortunately) can no longer do these restorations or Charles Duffy ... a master gunsmith "par excellence" who's standard refinish was someone else's restoration. Sadly, Charles Duffy passed on a few years back.

Over the years I have never passed a nice deal on a S&W "Factory" refurbished Model 3 which strongly depended upon "when" the repair or refurbish was done (prior to the 1970s, OK. 1960s better, 1950s and back even better than that). Further, the examination of the refinished or refurbished piece to determine if there had been excessive pitting or was in excellent conditions prior to the repair / refurbish .... actually examining the gun "through" the repair / refinish / refurbishment.

Factory S&W refurbished guns usually hold a higher regard and respect by collectors than others that were repaired or refinished by some unknown.

Purists of the time, would not even consider a refinished "collectible" gun while the going trend seems to show a wider approval for S&W Factory repaired / refinished / refurbished guns.

Some older collectors and gun owners would simply send their favorite baby to the factory for a refinish if she started to show thinning blue, SOLELY with the highest regards and respect to keep their cherished S&Ws in fine tune and maintenance. Back then many of those guns had not yet become "collectible" or scarce.

The choice is yours alone.

But, as they Knight in Guard of the Holy Grail would advise: "Choose wisely".
 
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1. "Vintage" often is used as a generic term. So it's like saying my barrel is inches long, it's meaningless w/o specificity.

So one must specify the vintage one is referring to. You picked pre 1958 vintage. That's good and clear to anyone.

2. It's too easy to generalize the finish over a long period of time but not accurately because over your chosen vintage period, the finish/process changed several times, can be different by model, and particularly for the 10 years following each world war when the satin finish was standard unless special ordered.

3. I would never get a 're-blue or refinish' and that's not what you want. You actually want a "finish restoration" which also implies factory matching prep and polishing techniques. That's a big difference! To do or not is a personal decision but if you do, forget about collector value, period.

And yes Ford's is considered excellent by most, you must specify the finish you want and price will be commensurate with your choice.

Ford's Guns
http://www.fordsguns.com/
The master Horace Ford in Florida:
Ford's work in post 32 is a $400 job on 6/26/13, and some other examples are in other posts in this thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...on-relieved-grips-help-pls.html#post138237660
 
Lets consider the statement that it is your gun, do what you want. Really.
We are the custodians, assigned to care for them, we are not suppose to screw them up for future owners. I sell and trade like all of us. The good stuff goes to my two boys. Re-fins and diddled with guns bring me no joy.
There are no more artisans. They are gone. Best
 
One minor, yet very significant addition to your excellent description of the finishing process----very significant because it accounts for S&W's heretofore excellent polishing: The leather polishing wheels were formed----formed to fit (exactly) the particular surface at hand----flat/round/concave/convex----you name it, they had it (with back-up).

If you browse around in older issues of the Gun Digest(??) (late 50's-early 60's is my best recollection/guess) you will find a pictorial essay of S&W's manufacturing process---start to finish. Therein you will find at least one, if not several photos of these polishing wheels-----gazillions of them piled high on racks.

Bottom Line: If you have a surface on ANY S&W (from back in the good old days) they had a wheel (or six or eight) to fit it----exactly. And given even a cursory examination of any high condition older gun, you will come to believe the lads knew how to use them----AND took great pride in their work.

Them there was the good old days----------long gone, but not forgotten----simply lamented.

Ralph Tremaine

Given an unwise, yet overwhelming desire to have your gun refinished, send it to Fords. The primary reason is because they polish by hand---and the results are spectacular. Your gun will not look as it did when it came out of the box----it'll be better (very noticeable higher polish, slightly darker color). Their "Master Blue" is what you're after. Your instructions to them to produce these results go like this: Please assign this to your very best craftsman----and I don't care how much it costs. The bad news is you will never again be able to use this gun----it's too pretty------goes on the shelf----occasional fondling is permitted.
 
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LongColt45 said:
[*]During this "vintage era", their premium revolvers were highly polished by skilled craftsmen and all parts of each individual gun were blued together using Smith's proprietary Carbonia oil / bone charcoal mixture in a gas furnace . . .

It is my newly acquired 1957 Pre-Model 29 .44 Magnum . . . The polish of the metal is mostly really good, with some bluing wear at the muzzle and on the cylinder, and there are no dings or significant scratches. However, the bluing has a few blemishes to the color and there are a couple of tiny rust spots hidden under the stocks. This is an $1100 gun . . .
Click to expand...

As noted above, there were several different finishes for S&W revolvers in the Twentieth century, and not all "premium" S&Ws were gloss finished. Arguably, the finest revolvers ever made were the late 1940s & early 1950s were the Masterpiece line. They had a matte finish for several years.

My suggestion would be to sell that one to someone who will appreciate it as is. Take your sale money and what you would spend at Ford's and buy one in better condition that you would be happy with owning. In a decade you will be glad you have an original 44 Mag, since the value will continue to grow . . . unless it is refinished.
 
If the blued finish is worn, but not rusted or damaged, it is possible to have it re-blued without polishing, and it turns out well, at least it has on the ones I have personally done that way. But I agree with everyone else in advising against any type of complete re-finishing for yours. Applying some cold blue on the worn areas won't hurt if it makes you feel better. But it's not a permanent fix.

To paraphrase one earlier posting, if you want a gun which looks like new, you should buy a new gun.
 
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I've done a lit'l work on my own S&Ws, including a finish change or
a new polish and blue job......


Having used Ford's several times and after as many return parts for
quality issues, they are now very last on my list of outside sources.


I'd clean that 44 up with a lit'l RIG and an old soft wool sock and then wax it a bit.




.
 
gmborkovic said:
Lets consider the statement that it is your gun, do what you want. Really.
We are the custodians, assigned to care for them, we are not suppose to screw them up for future owners. I sell and trade like all of us. The good stuff goes to my two boys. Re-fins and diddled with guns bring me no joy.
There are no more artisans. They are gone. Best
Click to expand...

I was going to say "that's a bit dramatic"...but just earlier today I posted that "every time somebody refinishes a pinned and recessed Smith, a puppy gets cancer." So, I am probably not in the best position to talk.
 
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