Reduction of the power floor for the IDPA Stock Service Revolver Division

[Samuel Adams]

The following email went out to the ACs and Club Contacts:

IDPA recognizes the difficulty of finding off the shelf factory loaded .38 special ammunition that meets the existing 125,000 power floor for SSR. Because of this difficulty, IDPA has decided to lower the power floor required for SSR to 105,000. The 105,000 power floor will allow more off the shelf brands of ammunition to meet the requirement for the SSR division. This change in power floor should allow IDPA members more opportunity to participate in the SSR division without having to invest in reloading equipment.

This change in power floor will become effective on January 17th, 2011.

For reasons of continuity, the ongoing 2010/2011 Postal Match will still require 125,000 power floor ammunition to be used for any matches yet to be held.

IDPA appreciates your help in implementing this rule change. We hope you all have a good year and a great shooting season.

 

[westczek]

I don't shoot IDPA, but I've often thought that this would be nice for USPSA to help new shooters who don't reload or regular USPSA shooters from other divisions who have revolvers to shoot revolver once in a while.

Westczek

 

[David Sinko]

Oh, this is just great...

First, I have NEVER seen a chronograph used at any major match I have attended. Why change rules that are never enforced anyway? I suspect now we'll have even more shooters getting away with sub-Minor in SSP and ESP.

Second, let's not forget that 105 PF is for a revolver with a 4" barrel. If I decide to shoot a major match with my 2" Model 64, my ammo must make Power Factor in the 4" barrel and NOT the 2" barrel at a chronograph. But since I'm actually USING a 2" barrel, the steel must still be calibrated to fall at the lesser Power Factor, which will be significantly lower than 105 PF.

This is going to create even more headaches in a game that already has too many ridiculous rules. Change the rules to require making PF with whatever you brought to the match. Actually use a chronograph! If you don't make PF with what you brought, then you get a match DQ. Keep it simple.

Dave Sinko

 

[westczek]

If it wasn't complicated it wouldn't be IDPA... Right?

Westczek

 

[scooter123]

Actually, I think it's a move intended to allow more people to compete who don't reload or have access to a chronograph. Currently there is only one single 38 +P commercial loading that meats the 130K power factor. That is Speer Lawman 158 gr. +P. That particular load won't be found at Walmart or even most handgun ranges, in addition some sellers will only sell it to LEO's. This means that if you don't reload you either shoot an ammunition that doesn't meet the power floor or you shoot 357 Magnums which are well beyond the power floor.

 

[OKFC05]

Oh, this is just great...

First, I have NEVER seen a chronograph used at any major match I have attended. Why change rules that are never enforced anyway? I suspect now we'll have even more shooters getting away with sub-Minor in SSP and ESP.

Second, let's not forget that 105 PF is for a revolver with a 4" barrel. If I decide to shoot a major match with my 2" Model 64, my ammo must make Power Factor in the 4" barrel and NOT the 2" barrel at a chronograph. But since I'm actually USING a 2" barrel, the steel must still be calibrated to fall at the lesser Power Factor, which will be significantly lower than 105 PF.
Dave Sinko

You east coast guys that never use chronos need to come here for some sanctioned matches. We chrono and weigh the guns.
.38 Spl for SSR has been the #1 to fail chrono, and there have been many complaints to IDPA officials about not being able to use ordinary commercial .38 Spl.

I've also heard about the "son of IPSC" matches being called IDPA and using large amounts of steel in violation of IDPA rules.
The rules need to be enforced by the area coordinator (mine has never been to one of our club matches), if in fact the club is actually a dues-paying IDPA club. There are clubs using the IDPA name only.

I've had some visiting shooters get upset when they find out that OK sanctioned matches are actually done by IDPA rules.
I think the problem is with their clubs, not ours, and not the IDPA rules. Since I handload .38 and probably won't change mine, I don't much care what the SSR power factor is, and will just use whatever is specified for chrono when working a match. I DQ'd one fellow for shooting PF 86 ammo in CDP; must have been using a 7# recoil spring?

In my experience, the 115gr 9mm WWB ammo is about the worst at ringing steel instead of dropping it. The 158gr .38 is better at any normal speed.

 

[roundgunner]

I shoot in the Northeast and the major matches are done with chronographs and scales, including pulling and weighing bullets sometimes.

I will be SOing the S&W indoor championships in a few weeks and I'm sure the guns and ammo will be checked close.

I hope changing the rules to make factory ammo an option will help, I personally don't know anybody who complained about wanting to use factory ammo.

Happyness is one of these

 

[JB4570]

Nice Award there Roundgunner and Ditto for the same about our Ohio clubs here OKF05, I do get around to about all of my clubs and our rules are adhered too quit well, Roundgunner I'll probably see you at S&W in Feb also.

Joe

 

[calmex]

I will admit to being completely out of the loop living here in Central Mexico, but I am shocked that .38 Special ammo is not making the 125 power floor. When the IPSC Minor Power floor was established at 125 it was because that was more or less the power of a standard 158 grain lead bullet out of a 4 inch barrel with a little leeway built in.

Any 158 grain lead or jacketed bullet travelling at 792 fps gives you 125. Are they loading below that now? I mean, I don't actually know because HERE all we can get is the rather aneamic 130 grain Aguila stuff which MIGHT make the 105 power factor, but won't touch the 125.

The last 158 grain stuff I could buy here in Mexico was some Sellier y Bellot stuff that was about a 132 power factor, and some 158 jacketed soft point Aguila stuff that would have been just on the borderline out of 6 inches and just under out of 4. But I didn't think the situation was THAT bad universally in the power area for .38 Special.

I reload myself, so I don't worry about it personally...but it just seems that we're being fed "loaded down" stuff sometimes. I guess I really am out of the loop these days.

 

[JB4570]

Calmex,
Just about all I see on the shelves at most of the discount department stores is 130gr. and thats where the problem is, most shooters our way just pick up a couple of boxes for a match and don't reload.

In my town WM only has 130gr. nothing else to pick from, and from what I have been told for a few years its the same else where.

We have had many guy's get DQ'ed for the low power factor issue by buying WWB and UMC. to keep the cost of ammo down.



A large amount of shooting with Heavy .357 or even very stiff 38+P as this forum states on many threads it will in time cause problems with a K frame, I guess if everyone reloaded this would not be an issue, but IDPA is about using everyday equipment and ammo for this sport.

I myself use either a M13 or 586 and don't have a problem at all, but then again I roll my own.

So the powers to be have made SSR a little more attractive to shoot in, without breaking the bank.

Joe

 

[wnr700]

So what off the shelf stuff should I buy...

I was going to start shooting IDPA next month.

Until I start reloading, what grain and brand should I be seeking?

I have a Model 586... if it matters

 

[OKFC05]

I was going to start shooting IDPA next month.

Until I start reloading, what grain and brand should I be seeking

According to one of the OK shooters who was in the group that selected PF 105 for SSR, the common WIN 130gr econo-box chrono'd at about 105. Any 158gr .38 commercial loading should make it just fine. The WC and light bullets (110gr) don't make it. Blazer 158gr is cheap and makes power easily. For the 125gr, I'm not sure what they tested (most 125gr sold around here are +P anyway). Given a choice, I'd much prefer 158gr standard over 125gr +P for range work.
The brand is no longer so important, and hopefully you can find acceptable ammo at a reasonable price using these guidelines.

Added: Here's some old chrono data that should still be fairly close:
Federal AE38K 130gr FMJ – 116PF, AE38B – 158gr LRN - 122PF. Winchester Q4171 130gr FMJ – 104PF, Q4196 150gr LRN – 127PF, USA38JHP 125gr +P JHP – 118PF.
Speer Lawman 53750 & 53833 158gr +P TMJ – 142PF .

 

[roundgunner]

Nice Award there Roundgunner and Ditto for the same about our Ohio clubs here OKF05, I do get around to about all of my clubs and our rules are adhered too quit well, Roundgunner I'll probably see you at S&W in Feb also.

Joe

I will see you there. I'm pretty sure I will be CSO at the "warehouse". Say hi when you come thru, I will be the big old guy with all the crap on my "shoot me first" vest. ;-)

PS. I'm going to shoot SSP this year with my M&P 40. It will be the first bottom feeder I have shot at a major match in many years.

 

[Harrison]

I have never shot IDPA, but I have shot USPSA since the early 1990s. Unless one is independently wealthy I cannot understand not reloading. Besides the # of rounds required for a match, if one is going to shot USPSA, and I suspect IDPA also, one must practice fairly frequently. There is no store bought ammo that is cheap enough to shoot a couple of matchs a month, plus put in a couple of good practice sessions per month. If a person is going to be even half way serious about either sport, they have to reload. In fact, I don't know of any regular shooters that don't reload.

 

[JB4570]

Roundgunner,
I seen that vest of yours before, I think at 2007 Nats. I'll be there helping also, just had shoulder surgery and just not ready yet, spoke with Frank and he'll put me somewhere this year.

Joe

 

[Desert Pete]

Way Too Many Rules

I have never shot IDPA. When I looked into it I was under the naive assumption that it was about shooting a 'defensive' pistol - one that a normal person would carry for personal protection. Was I wrong!

None of the pistols I normally carry would come even close to qualifying for IDPA use. Heck, my M9 would not qualify using my normal ammunition.

Maybe there should be a category for the guns people actually do carry. Something simple like a stock, off the shelf gun carried in a stock holster and shooting off the shelf ammo. Place the targets at seven yards, or less. Require a cell phone to be in your possession since you will need it to call 911.

At least where I live, shooting someone in self defense at seven yards might get you in trouble but it is at least a realistic defensive distance. Anything beyond that can be considered manslaughter or murder in my state.

 

[OKFC05]

I have never shot IDPA.

my M9 would not qualify using my normal ammunition.
Maybe there should be a category for the guns people actually do carry.

That category is Stock Service Pistol. Your M9 with any commercial ammo (or handload equivalent)would qualify in SSP, as do many smaller DA or striker fired pistols. One feature of the power factor, the ammo has to make power in the longest barrel in the division, not necessarily in your short carry gun. I sometimes shoot a Kahr P9 in SSP.

Place the targets at seven yards, or less. Require a cell phone to be in your possession since you will need it to call 911.

That's an interesting scenario for an IDPA stage, and with your permission I will use it in a coming match. I've used something similar in "Lunch Cart Ambush" where I had the shooter holding a (plastic) hot dog in one hand and a sode can in the other. The 3 muggers were at 2 to 5 yards.

2. Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)
Handguns permitted for use in this division must:
A. Be semi-automatic.
B. Be double action, double action only, or safe action (when
the trigger is pulled, the hammer/striker is cocked and then
released).
C. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.
D. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 39oz., including an
empty magazine. (Will be effective January 25, 2006)
E. Have a minimum annual production of 2000 units;
(discontinued models must have had a total production of
20,000 units).
F. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾" x 6" x 1 5/8"
with an empty magazine inserted.
http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

 

[David Sinko]

There are PLENTY of reasons why you might have to shoot an assailant beyond seven yards distance. Simply running away (as many who think they know the law advocate) will often get you a bullet in the back. I don't have a problem with lots of close targets in matches, but I DO have a problem with IDPA's restrictive no-shoot policy. I think every shoot target should be surrounded by two no-shoot targets that cover much of the intended target area and the penalties for hitting one of the no-shoots should be much higher. The competitor should be forced to slow down and take accuracy much more seriously. Now that the SSR power factor has been watered down, the accuracy requirements should be even more stringent.

Dave Sinko

 

[Desert Pete]

There are PLENTY of reasons why you might have to shoot an assailant beyond seven yards distance. Simply running away (as many who think they know the law advocate) will often get you a bullet in the back. I don't have a problem with lots of close targets in matches, but I DO have a problem with IDPA's restrictive no-shoot policy. I think every shoot target should be surrounded by two no-shoot targets that cover much of the intended target area and the penalties for hitting one of the no-shoots should be much higher. The competitor should be forced to slow down and take accuracy much more seriously. Now that the SSR power factor has been watered down, the accuracy requirements should be even more stringent.

Dave Sinko

No one said anything about running away. In my state you have a legal obligation to extricate yourself from a confrontation before it leads to the use of a weapon. The farther away the bad guy is the more it is likely that your actions will be looked at very, very closely by the police. There are some states that allow you the right to hold your ground. Mine is not one of them. Unless you shoot someone inside your home who has broken in, you are certain to go before the Grand Jury if you use a weapon in personal defense. What happens there is anyone's guess.