Registered Magnum ammo?
- Thread starter ButchG17
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rburg
Member
Its not original RM ammo. That had large pistol primers and is very easy to identify. My guess is that its postwar, but still very collectable. Keep it, don't shoot it up.
The lead bullets did tend to foul the bore due to the high velocity and the fairly soft lead. Just not a problem.
Someone else needs to ID the time frame of the box. I've never seen a book that identifies boxes and the times they were produced. I've always gone back and dug out old American Rifleman magazines for the ads, using them to approximate the years. The problem is that Remington and Winchester didn't always show pictures of boxes in the ads.
TN always used to put tax stamps on their ammo. Living fairly close to them, we saw that on ammo for years at gunshows. Many vendors either came from there or bought ammo from that area. All it does is tell you where it started its retail life.
The lead bullets did tend to foul the bore due to the high velocity and the fairly soft lead. Just not a problem.
Someone else needs to ID the time frame of the box. I've never seen a book that identifies boxes and the times they were produced. I've always gone back and dug out old American Rifleman magazines for the ads, using them to approximate the years. The problem is that Remington and Winchester didn't always show pictures of boxes in the ads.
TN always used to put tax stamps on their ammo. Living fairly close to them, we saw that on ammo for years at gunshows. Many vendors either came from there or bought ammo from that area. All it does is tell you where it started its retail life.
Michael Stern
Member
I don't know squat about dating ammo, but this must be early stuff, as it has the large primer:
rburg
Member
Yep, thats the stuff!
merlindrb
Member
It's not often (these days
) that I disagree with my esteemed friend Dick Burg. However, until recently I also believed that these boxes were post-war. Then I bought a couple of guns that went to Western in 1936/7 and began to take more interest in the company. As part of this interest I "acquired" a few pre-war Westerm ammo catalogs from Ebay and, lo & behold, there were these 357 boxes exactly as pictured above. The rest of the Western boxes in the shown in the catalog picture are clearly the pre-war target style - as per the style of the .32 S&W Long Western box at the bottom of the pic below. In the catalog, only the .357 Magnum appears to be in the Super-X packaging.
Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that
) that perhaps Western were the people that developed small primer magnum ammo and did so in the late 30's... That might also explain their need to purchase test guns in 1937 (factory letters clearly state "for testing purposes").
Thoughts anyone??
Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.
Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that
Thoughts anyone??
Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.
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Guys,
what we need is an old employee from Winchester-Western, and another from Rem-Peters. Look at the 2nd pic in this thread- see that lot number on the end flap? That would tell us a lot- IF we spoke the language. And NO, don't assume the 69 that starts it off is the year- it is likely NOT that simple, on purpose. manufacturers don't want their codes to be THAT easy to read. It could be a batch #, or machine #, or employee#.
Dave- you gonna shoot those blue pills? Very interesting.
I agree that NOT all pre-war 357 and 38/44 ammo is large primer. No hard evidence at hand, but much empirical evidence over the years. I need to get my library set up....
I stumbled on a bit of ammo recently. I'll post some pics when I get caught up on the selling.
Regards,
Lee J
what we need is an old employee from Winchester-Western, and another from Rem-Peters. Look at the 2nd pic in this thread- see that lot number on the end flap? That would tell us a lot- IF we spoke the language. And NO, don't assume the 69 that starts it off is the year- it is likely NOT that simple, on purpose. manufacturers don't want their codes to be THAT easy to read. It could be a batch #, or machine #, or employee#.
Dave- you gonna shoot those blue pills? Very interesting.
I agree that NOT all pre-war 357 and 38/44 ammo is large primer. No hard evidence at hand, but much empirical evidence over the years. I need to get my library set up....
I stumbled on a bit of ammo recently. I'll post some pics when I get caught up on the selling.
Regards,
Lee J
To add to the confusion, I am holding a full Peters box exactly like the one pictured by Michael. But it has the small primers. The lot number in the left flap is: F13N 162
I also have two boxes of the Western Super-X .357 just like Butch pictured. Both of mine are identical except that it is obvious that the printing is from different batches since the "Coated Bullet" and the "158 Grain" are slightly different type sizes (only a couple of points, I'd guess). One of them says "Lubricating Alloy" under the Lubaloy and the other doesn't. On the one which doesn't say "Lubricating Alloy", a dense black line has been printed over "Nickel Plated Case". The projectile in both is lubaloy and one case is nickel plated and one isn't. The non-plated rounds have a second crimp.
Ray Giles just published a beautiful book entitled "One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1856-1956". Most of the boxes are of rifle cartridges but the style of boxes should also carry over into the revolver lines. Ray's web site is: www.rtgammo.com
Bob
I also have two boxes of the Western Super-X .357 just like Butch pictured. Both of mine are identical except that it is obvious that the printing is from different batches since the "Coated Bullet" and the "158 Grain" are slightly different type sizes (only a couple of points, I'd guess). One of them says "Lubricating Alloy" under the Lubaloy and the other doesn't. On the one which doesn't say "Lubricating Alloy", a dense black line has been printed over "Nickel Plated Case". The projectile in both is lubaloy and one case is nickel plated and one isn't. The non-plated rounds have a second crimp.
Ray Giles just published a beautiful book entitled "One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1856-1956". Most of the boxes are of rifle cartridges but the style of boxes should also carry over into the revolver lines. Ray's web site is: www.rtgammo.com
Bob
wordsmith
Member
In Ray Giles book, mentioned by Bob Bettis, the Western box posted by Butch is pictured as being the 1939-style box and was used until 1945-46.
David
David
merlindrb
Member
Yeah, like I said it's in the Western catalog of that year. Glad Ray Giles agrees of course, but...
cxm
Member
Dave,
I'm pretty sure the white box 60,000 ammo you show is used for proofing guns... that is to say it is about 2x the usual pressure of the ammo to be used in the gun. This is the ammo that was referred to as "blue pills" in at the S&W factory... as it was marked with blue so it would not accidently be used for ordinary use... I would expect that ammo is worth quite a lot...
It would also be very interesting to see what powder is loaded in those cases... probably the Winchester equilvalent DuPont #5 or Bulls-Eye.
That is really a great find Dave...
V/r
Chuck
I'm pretty sure the white box 60,000 ammo you show is used for proofing guns... that is to say it is about 2x the usual pressure of the ammo to be used in the gun. This is the ammo that was referred to as "blue pills" in at the S&W factory... as it was marked with blue so it would not accidently be used for ordinary use... I would expect that ammo is worth quite a lot...
It would also be very interesting to see what powder is loaded in those cases... probably the Winchester equilvalent DuPont #5 or Bulls-Eye.
That is really a great find Dave...
V/r
Chuck
Originally posted by merlindrb:
It's not often (these days) that I disagree with my esteemed friend Dick Burg. However, until recently I also believed that these boxes were post-war. Then I bought a couple of guns that went to Western in 1936/7 and began to take more interest in the company. As part of this interest I "acquired" a few pre-war Westerm ammo catalogs from Ebay and, lo & behold, there were these 357 boxes exactly as pictured above. The rest of the Western boxes in the shown in the catalog picture are clearly the pre-war target style - as per the style of the .32 S&W Long Western box at the bottom of the pic below. In the catalog, only the .357 Magnum appears to be in the Super-X packaging.
Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that) that perhaps Western were the people that developed small primer magnum ammo and did so in the late 30's... That might also explain their need to purchase test guns in 1937 (factory letters clearly state "for testing purposes").
Thoughts anyone??
Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.
merlindrb
Member
Guys
I'm guilty of a minor (?) oversight.
I should have said that if the box has the words "Division of Olin Industries Inc" printed below the line "Western Cartridge Company, East Alton, ILL, USA" then the box is post 1944. If it does not have that extra address line then it's pre 1944. The box posted by Butch is, therefore, pre 1944.
Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
I'm guilty of a minor (?) oversight.
I should have said that if the box has the words "Division of Olin Industries Inc" printed below the line "Western Cartridge Company, East Alton, ILL, USA" then the box is post 1944. If it does not have that extra address line then it's pre 1944. The box posted by Butch is, therefore, pre 1944.
Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
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Butch-
Some states tax ammo, the money to be used for Conservation, or whatever the politicians want to spend it on. SC is one I see all the time. GA does not.
Regards,
Lee J
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Dave,
Roy said you should be fined one box of pre-war 357's.
I can collect 'em anytime it's convenient.
Lee J
There's a reason why this forum is one of the two best places on the internet....thanks for some great info guys!
It would appear that this box of ammo was likely made sometime between 1939 and 1944, and it probably has enough monetary value that I shouldn't shoot it.
Now all I have to do is decide what to do with it.....
It would appear that this box of ammo was likely made sometime between 1939 and 1944, and it probably has enough monetary value that I shouldn't shoot it.
Now all I have to do is decide what to do with it.....
merlindrb
Member
I agree, definitely don't shoot it!
Probably made closer to 39 than 44 as war time production took most of their resources. My understanding is that most of that sold from 1942 onwards was stock in hand prior to that date.
Perhaps you should let me have it so I can pay the fine imposed by Roy/Lee above?
Probably made closer to 39 than 44 as war time production took most of their resources. My understanding is that most of that sold from 1942 onwards was stock in hand prior to that date.
Perhaps you should let me have it so I can pay the fine imposed by Roy/Lee above?
According to Jinks, the Winchester box on the right was the first commercial production cartridge for the .357 Magnum.
Enjoy
Chuck
Enjoy
Chuck
Originally posted by merlindrb:
Guys
I'm guilty of a minor (?) oversight.
I should have said that if the box has the words "Division of Olin Industries Inc" printed below the line "Western Cartridge Company, East Alton, ILL, USA" then the box is post 1944. If it does not have that extra address line then it's pre 1944. The box posted by Butch is, therefore, pre 1944.
Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
Dave,
Thanks for that clarification. The box that I described as having the "Nickel Plated Case" is without the Olin Industries label while the box that has the "Nickel Plated Case" lined out does have the Olin Industries label. Lots of subtleties here! Should be a real fertile field for some research.
Bob
merlindrb
Member
Bob - I keep trying to pick up Western pre-war catalogs as they seem to be the best source of info to work from. Not a lot of variety though
Chuck - nice pre-war winchester box. Great condition. Here's a group picture showing a few pre-war boxes including a rare Dominion (with no rounds in it!
). The 3 boxes of the left side of pic 1 are large primer.
Interestingly I've yet to find a Western box with large primer ammo, which kind of supports my theory that Western pioneered small primer magnum ammo.
Anyone got any Western large primer .357??
Chuck - nice pre-war winchester box. Great condition. Here's a group picture showing a few pre-war boxes including a rare Dominion (with no rounds in it!
Interestingly I've yet to find a Western box with large primer ammo, which kind of supports my theory that Western pioneered small primer magnum ammo.
Anyone got any Western large primer .357??
Here are a few more .357 boxes. Note that there are 5 Western Super X boxes, all of which are different. The white one on the bottom left and the yellow one on the bottom right are both Metal Piercing. The yellow one in the bottom middle is not metal piercing and differs from the one on the right by one digit in the stock number. The two blue and yellow boxes on the middle row are both Lubaloy but one is a nickel plated case and the other is not plated (Olin Industries).
I'd love to hear from anyone who can help date the time frame of any of these.
Bob
I'd love to hear from anyone who can help date the time frame of any of these.
Bob
