Relocating a serial number?

[palmetto99]

This is kind of a general gun smith question. Is it "legal" to relocate a serial number on a firearm? Looking at some modifications on a firearm for competition and some of the mods could "remove" the existing number. I've been doing my best google-fu, but still not getting a definitive answer. My usual gun smith was stumped by the question too and was going to ask one of his manufacturer contacts. I want to keep everything legit, just not sure how to do it. Thanks for any input guys.

 

[jrd1976]

The GCA of 1968 prohibits this practice. It does not provide for removal of the serial number from the original factory location and putting it elsewhere. A gun without a serial number in the original factory location is an illegal firearm. The ATF position will probably be that you could have used a different number since the original number is missing.

I can't see how a modification for any reason could outweigh the potential legal problems.

 

[usnrigger]

No expert and I'd refer you to ATF for direct response. I thought that a individual with a FFL manufacture licence possibly can do something along what your asking. I would contact a person with a proper FFL licence as well as ATF.

Like I said this is only a possibility and further research must be performed

 

[2152hq]

It used to be allowed BUT with the permission of the BATF only. That permission had to be requested in writing on a BATF Form (by an FFL) before any relocation was done.

They still show a 'marking variance' application form but I have a feeling this is for Manufacturers & Importer FFL's re: original markings.

Best bet is to call or Email the BATFE Technology Division
Put the question to them as they are the section that handles any changes like this.
Do not remove a mgf'rs original imprinted ser# from the frame/rcv'r of a firearm under any circumstances and simply restamp it (somewhere else) on the frame.

E-mail address: [email protected]
Voice: (304) 616-4300

 

[colt_saa]

This is kind of a general gun smith question. Is it "legal" to relocate a serial number on a firearm? Looking at some modifications on a firearm for competition and some of the mods could "remove" the existing number. I've been doing my best google-fu, but still not getting a definitive answer. My usual gun smith was stumped by the question too and was going to ask one of his manufacturer contacts. I want to keep everything legit, just not sure how to do it. Thanks for any input guys.

You did not mention what donor firearm you are referring to.

S&W revolvers that left the factory wearing target stocks all have the serial number located in two places. One under the target stocks and a second that can be read without needing to remove the stocks

While it is not legal to relocate a serial number, if one serial number is partially obscured and the other remains intact you are not going to have an issue.

I am sure ATF's Technical Branch will give you a letter along those lines.

 

[k22fan]

FWIW, not much I suspect, 30 years ago I used a gunsmith who had a manufacturer’s FFL so he could stamp the s/n in an additional spot. The reason for adding an additional s/n stamp was so a sporterized military surplus rifle’s scope base would not have to be removed to show the s/n while crossing international borders. To make it legal a manufacturer’s FFL was required in addition to a gunsmith’s FFL. It’s not the nature of bureaucrats to relax regulations.

 

[palmetto99]

Thanks for all the input guys. I've got an e-mail out to the manufacturer to see if they may be able to assist. BTW, the firearm I want to modify is a semi-auto shotgun for 3-gun matches. I want to open up the loading port on the receiver, but the serial number is very close to the port. I'll get something figured out. Thanks again.

 

[glowe]

. . . S&W revolvers that left the factory wearing target stocks all have the serial number located in two places. One under the target stocks and a second that can be read without needing to remove the stocks. . .

I must say that I have never ran across a K frame target revolver with target stocks that have an exposed serial number stamped on the frame. Could you point us to the references you found about this issue?

All S&Ws have serial numbers on the cylinder and barrel, plus the butt-frame in one of 2 locations, but both the front of the strap and butt are covered by a set of target stocks.

 

[k22fan]

I must say that I have never ran across a K frame target revolver with target stocks that have an exposed serial number stamped on the frame. Could you point us to the references you found about this issue?

All S&Ws have serial numbers on the cylinder and barrel, plus the butt-frame in one of 2 locations, but both the front of the strap and butt are covered by a set of target stocks.

Most, maybe all of my adjustable sighted K frames that are new enough to have a model number have their s/n stamped next to the model number on the frame under the yoke. Before S&W added model numbers there that location was used to stamp the frame's assembly number. Frame assembly numbers were moved to the side of the grip frame near the bottom to clear a spot for the model number. Also stamping serial numbers on cylinders and barrels was phased out during 1956. I wonder if you have been looking at older revolvers?

Incidentally, for a short time during the 1990s a second s/n was put on the bottom of the top strap or below the frame window on some models. IIRC I have an example of each on stainless revolvers but I forget which ones. I vaguely recall the Feds require a duplicate frame s/n. Don't quote me on that. If that regulation exists it must have started after S&W's reduction of s/n locations other than the frame.

 

[glowe]

I don't have any K frame revolvers with model numbers stamped anywhere! I have a safe full of S&Ws and all but two qualify for C&R or antique status.

I guess I still am not clear about "extra" serial numbers being stamped when target stocks are added at the factory??

 

[k22fan]

[...] I guess I still am not clear about "extra" serial numbers being stamped when target stocks are added at the factory??

Whether or not a revolver shipped with target stocks has no bearing on where its serial numbers were stamped.

 

[glowe]

Whether or not a revolver shipped with target stocks has no bearing on where its serial numbers were stamped.

Thanks, that was my original point. Maybe someday I will buy a gun with a model number on it - - after I run out of vintage guns to buy!

 

[Nemo288]

Not completely on topic but I do happen to have a 696-1 that I think MAY have had the
serial on the bottom of the grip frame ground off.
This makes little sense (if it had a number there) as the serial in the yoke well and on the left side
of the frame under the cylinder are there to see plain as day.
The Uncle Mikes grip set normally covers this number over.
My 696 has a serial on the bottom of the grip frame and in the yoke well but not on the outside left of the frame.
Photographing this area to show the ground off area did not turn out very well.
The details are very low contrast.
Whaddya think? Was there a number there?

As it happens I am sending this in to the mothership to get a little work done on it.
We will see if they squawk about it.
I hope I get it back.

I also own a 629-2 that has had the serial number changed and over-stamped..
As it was done at the factory and the rest of the job was well performed it doesn't bother me at all.
Just a little different looking as you can see part of the old number under the new one.

 

[scha]

According to the Standard Catalog of S&W 3rd edition, (page 173) it states "Around 2000 S&W put the serial number on the left side of the frame below the cylinder, in the yoke cut, and in very small numbers under the grips on the frame, and eliminated the serial number on the butt. By the end of 2002 all changed again with the serial numbers once again on the butt and in the yoke cut and the small number under the grips was eliminated: this coincided with the new markings on the frame near the yoke retention screw."

Based on this, it is possible to have a revolver from 2000 - 2002 that does not have a serial number on the butt of the grip frame.

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[Nemo288]

Thanks.
Since this one has the serial on the outside below the cylinder,
it's entirely possible they put a number on the butt by mistake and then removed it.
(But again; why bother?)
This would put it near the end of the 696-1 production.
It has correct cylinder throat dimensions and is super accurate as a result with factory plated bullets.
I am a little queasy about sending it in, but it has extraction problems.

===
Nemo

 

[murphydog]

Whether or not a revolver shipped with target stocks has no bearing on where its serial numbers were stamped.

Well, yes and no .

Model stamped guns with factory Target stocks 'usually' have the serial number stamped in the yoke recess on the frame. I would expand this to say that 'usually' revolvers with adjustable sights did also. Fixed sight revolvers 'usually' did not, but in both cases exceptions abound.

This may have been so the SN could be readily seen without removing the stocks - a window in the bottom of the stocks, like many 686 CS-1s, has the same effect, as did stamping/etching the SN on the left side of the frame.