Rescued from the scrap pile- 38 S&W Victory with a twist

[TargetVictory]

Hi,

It was suggested in a FB group to come here and share:

I recently picked this Victory model up and it was a real head scratcher trying to figure out exactly what it was chambered for and what was original and what was not. From pictures, it was equally divided between 38 S&W and .38 Special. It was settled when S&W fit in the cylinder and Special didn’t, until I saw that the cylinder had a markedly different finish than the rest of the gun. So back to the drawing board.

I did fire 12 38 S&W rounds through it when I got it for a song (it was to be demilled and sold as a wall hanger) and it went ok. I’m glad I didn’t lose an appendage.

I took it to a gunsmith, he worked on it for a few weeks and when I came to pick it up today, it started a shop argument that led to taking apart other old Model 10s to see what fit and what didn’t.

The conclusion we arrived at is that while the cylinder is the only item to retain original finish and everything else matches to a middle of the road bluing refinish, the barrel is what’s incorrect. Everything is 38 S&W, while the barrel is .38 Special.

It does fire, but won’t win any competitions (beauty or performance) and with how long it’s been this way (easily 40 years) and how much I paid (under 100), I’m on the fence about sourcing a new barrel.

What do you think? As was suggested to me to ask here, does anyone have a S&W barrel in their parts boxes they’d be willing to deal on that would fit? Maybe it deserves a real second life.

Thanks for having me.

 

[Alk8944]

Exactly why are you concerned with the barrel? The barrels for both .38 S&W and .38 Special S&Ws are identical in every way except for the caliber marking. You are not gaining anything with that revolver by trying to re-make it closer to original. The reason the finish on the frame looks so different from the barrel is that the gun has been extensively polished and re-blued at some time in it's past.

Besides the barrel the stocks are much later S&W commercial model style normally referred to as "plain clothes" that are badly cracked. The rounded bottom corner is the giveaway. Overall it has a very strong look of being a "parts gun", one that has been assembled from whatever used parts someone could find. The way to verify this is look for the serial number(s) on various parts. Here is where to look:

Butt of grip, this is the legal serial number
Back of cylinder
Back of extractor, side that faces the cylinder
Back of the yoke arm which faces the front of the cylinder
Bottom flat of the barrel (this one isn't going to match!)

All these numbers should be the same on an un-molested example. I will bet most will not match! There will be a serial number on the bottom flat of the barrel too which is the number of the gun it was originally fit to.

Since you had a gunsmith look it over it apparently should be safe to shoot. For now simply enjoy it for what is is, an old gun you got for next to nothing.

 

[TargetVictory]

Exactly why are you concerned with the barrel? The barrels for both .38 S&W and .38 Special S&Ws are identical in every way except for the caliber marking. You are not gaining anything with that revolver by trying to re-make it closer to original. The reason the finish on the frame looks so different from the barrel is that the gun has been extensively polished and re-blued at some time in it's past.

I was told it was an issue and that they weren’t identical. Something to do with a “taper”?

As I stated multiple times, I’m not trying to make it original clearly. Just better functioning.

 

[Alk8944]

I was told it was an issue and that they weren’t identical. Something to do with a “taper”?

As I stated multiple times, I’m not trying to make it original clearly. Just better functioning.

The taper refers to the exterior contour of the barrel and is simply cosmetic. The tapered style barrels on both commercial S&Ws and those made during WWII are externally the same. The bore dimensions of both .38 S&W and .38 Special barrels are the same, or at least the specified dimension tolerance of both overlap. They are functionally identical.

There is absolutely no issue between the barrels, only the caliber marking as I said originally. There is one other difference, and that is that barrels of the British Service Revolvers (BSR) made for the Lend Lease program of WWII typically were 5" long, where yours is a 4" commercial barrel.

In short, what you were told is simply wrong! The only "issue" is the barrel is incorrect for a BSR, cosmetically.

 

[TargetVictory]

The taper refers to the exterior contour of the barrel and is simply cosmetic. The tapered style barrels on both commercial S&Ws and those made during WWII are externally the same. The bore dimensions of both .38 S&W and .38 Special barrels are the same, or at least the specified dimension tolerance of both overlap. They are functionally identical.

There is absolutely no issue between the barrels, only the caliber marking as I said originally. There is one other difference, and that is that barrels of the British Service Revolvers made for the Lend Lease program of WWII typically were 5" long, where yours is a 4" commercial barrel.

In short, what you were told is simply wrong!

The bullet diameter for the 38 S&W and .38 Special are the same? I thought there were differences that necessitated a different barrel.

The person who mentioned the possible issues is a well respected S&W historian you might be familiar with. Anything pre-1980, I’m completely lost.

 

[DWalt]

The .38 Special and .38 S&W barrel bores have slightly different diameters, but that is inconsequential. The main issue is what the various serial numbers are. In its current condition it would not have any collector value, but it could be a worthwhile utility shooter. Have you tried to insert a .38 Special cartridges into the chambers, and if so, do they seat fully? It is possible that its chambers have been lengthened to accept .38 Special ammunition. That would not be at all unusual. And it would greatly simplify finding ammunition.

 

[TargetVictory]

The .38 Special and .38 S&W barrel bores have slightly different diameters, but that is inconsequential. The main issue is what the various serial numbers are. In its current condition it would not have any collector value, but it could be a worthwhile utility shooter. Have you tried to insert a .38 Special cartridge into the chambers, and if so, do they seat fully? It is possible that its chambers have been lengthened to accept .38 Special ammunition. That would not be at all unusual.

It wasn’t to have something collector grade, but at under 100 dollars, I couldn’t say no.

.38 Special did not seat.

 

[TargetVictory]

This is a quote from FB and it’s not the first time I’ve heard it:
“ If it’s got a .38 Special barrel, it’s not safe to shoot .38 S&W cartridges. While they are both .38 caliber cartridges, .38 S&W is .380 diameter. .38 Special is .357/.358 diameter.
Find the right cylinder or even the right barrel. But don’t shoot this gun in its current configuration.”

 

[Muley Gil]

This is a quote from FB and it’s not the first time I’ve heard it:
“ If it’s got a .38 Special barrel, it’s not safe to shoot .38 S&W cartridges. While they are both .38 caliber cartridges, .38 S&W is .380 diameter. .38 Special is .357/.358 diameter.
Find the right cylinder or even the right barrel. But don’t shoot this gun in its current configuration.”

That is incorrect. The .38 S&W cartridge uses a bullet that is closer to .360", NOT .380".

 

[TargetVictory]

That is incorrect. The .38 S&W cartridge uses a bullet that is closer to .360", NOT .380".

Then the end result is the same, right? I shouldn’t be firing S&W out of a Special barrel.

 

[alwslate]

American .38 S&W factory bullet dia is supposed to be .360 dia not .380 and is probably very close to the .358 dia of .38 spl. The 380 marking is a British caliber marking not the actual bullet dia.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Then the end result is the same, right? I shouldn’t be firing S&W out of a Special barrel.

It doesn't really matter at .38 S&W performance levels.

 

[Alk8944]

The bullet diameter for the 38 S&W and .38 Special are the same? I thought there were differences that necessitated a different barrel.

The person who mentioned the possible issues is a well respected S&W historian you might be familiar with. Anything pre-1980, I’m completely lost.

And I am a school-trained gunsmith with over 60 years experience in the trade in various capacities!

These are the current nominal dimensions for both cartridges and barrels:

.38 Special;
Bore, .346", +.004" tolerance
Groove. .355" +.004" tolerance
Bullet, .359" minus.003" lead bullets

.38 S&W;
Bore .350" +.004 tolerance
Groove .3595" +.004 tolerance
Bullet .361 minus .006"

Together the two barrels can vary in groove diameter from .355" to .3635" Acceptable bullet diameters run from .355" to .361" In other words, in practical use bullets from .355" to .3635" can be shot in these calibers, and give "acceptable accuracy" even though "common knowledge" is that the correct diameters are .357" for .38 Special and .361" for .38 S&W!

Now, are you really confused? Study firearms, ammunition and ballistics extensively for another 60+ years as I have since I first became interested in firearms beginning ca. 1958 and you just might understand all of this. It isn't as simple as most shooters seem to think it is!

 

[DWalt]

This is a quote from FB and it’s not the first time I’ve heard it:
“ If it’s got a .38 Special barrel, it’s not safe to shoot .38 S&W cartridges. While they are both .38 caliber cartridges, .38 S&W is .380 diameter. .38 Special is .357/.358 diameter.
Find the right cylinder or even the right barrel. But don’t shoot this gun in its current configuration.”

Absolutely false!! Like most things on FB.

 

[jsfricks]

I saw where you posted this on Facebook. I didn’t comment on your post but I do every once in a while where I recommend folks come to this forum because I see a lot of wrong answers on that S&W page.

 

[glowe]

I don't think your idea of finding a 38 S&W barrel is a good one since the Victory line were all 38 Special. Getting the cylinder chambers lengthened to accept 38 Special like hundreds of thousands of other Victory revolvers were done over the years is a pretty cheap process. You might spit a few cases but no big deal for a caliber when the brass is readily available.

 

[Muley Gil]

Then the end result is the same, right? I shouldn’t be firing S&W out of a Special barrel.

It is safe, presuming the firearm is in good condition.

 

[TargetVictory]

I saw where you posted this on Facebook. I didn’t comment on your post but I do every once in a while where I recommend folks come to this forum because I see a lot of wrong answers on that S&W page.

The historian advised me to come here.

All I want to do is learn a bit and make sure the gun is safe. I’m not sure why this is causing some people to be so upset.

 

[TargetVictory]

It is safe, presuming the firearm is in good condition.

That’s the real question. I don’t know how to assess safety here. Besides for the mismatched parts, everything has structural integrity.

 

[TargetVictory]

I don't think your idea of finding a 38 S&W barrel is a good one since the Victory line were all 38 Special. Getting the cylinder chambers lengthened to accept 38 Special like hundreds of thousands of other Victory revolvers were done over the years is a pretty cheap process. You might spit a few cases but no big deal for a caliber when the brass is readily available.

This is a Victory that was chambered in 38 S&W from factory (I have the shipping document/invoice).